Author Topic: Confession of a Luftwobble.  (Read 922 times)

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2002, 12:04:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Drex
The important thing that you are leaving out.   No one likes him.


I thought we were friends, Drex!  :(....

-- Todd/Unloviathn

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2002, 12:07:47 PM »
Verm, agreeds. The 190D9 is the LW fighter for fighting the allies on even terms.

It has speed, acceleration, climb and roll rate over the F4U. In a 1v1 where the 190 pilot takes his time, unless he dies in a HO, he should win. Patience will result in the 47 driver losing e and alt, and in the end, his plane and maybe his life.

Having said that, there is one very important aspect that most forget when comparing fighters.

I call it 'over the top' performance - it's about how fast a plane can get over the top, and a what speeds.

All the allied fighters outdo the D9 in over the top performance. The G2 and G10 are middle range at this at best, but in general, LW fighters are really poor at this.

This is an important characteristic: it tells ya who'll win a loopfight. I've used the over-the-top capability of the P-38 and P-51B to quite easily reverse the situation on 190D9s - one flown by weapon and one flown by Naudet, both good 190 pilots.

Over the top really is vertical performance at slow speeds. This is also shown in rope a dope's - the one with the better performance can manage to keep his nose up for longer, at the same airspeed. The lesser plane in this regard thus needs to have an energy advantage to pull it off succesfully.

Another aspect is that of flaps. In most fights, LW fighters never get a chance to deploy the flaps. The LW bird will stall out just above the speed at which flaps can be deployed - assuming average g load, i.e enough load so that you aren't just a sitting duck for the enemy. I can count on one hand the times I've used flaps in a turn fight in the LW fighters. On the other hand, when I fly allied planes, like I've done for evaluation purposes lately, I deploy them almost every time. It's very effective and useful.

The 51 should win over all LW fighters in a 1v1 quite easily, except the D9 and the G10. These two are a match for the pony - the G10 only if the LW pilots have plenty of time and can point is nose upwards for a climb for a few minutes, and pretty much the same for the D9. Both can use their acceleration to dictate the fight - something that in a 1v1 is very valuable. If you can dictate the fight, you've won half the battle. And your chances of surviving are even higher than your chances of killing your enemy - simply disengage at will.

Or, the 109/190 could get the fight slow, into scissors, and then pull up into the vertical. The pony, if at a low enough speed, will be unable to follow and either stall out, or continue go ahead. It's still a dangerous maneuver, because the pony can pop some flaps and get the nose up for a quick snapshot.

Lastly, I now fully appreciate the difference between LW guns and RAF/USAAF ones. it is not as great as the most ardent LW supporters suggest, but it *is* far greater than RAF/USAAF pilots want to admit. D1.4 hits on a level running target is possible (done it on a consistent basis, ask Animal) with the .50s, although they'll have dissipated most of their energy at this range. This is an extreme example.

More realistic is the snapshot ability, and the 'death zone'. The ability to fire off a deadly salvo in a snapshot at d600-d700 (done it many a time) is *extremely* useful and in itself is a lethality multiplier. The enemy has a choice of either risking being hit at this range, or breaking so early that you'll be able to quickly counter his move and saddle up if needed. If you do not wish to saddle up, him turning at that distance still means you don't have to go to such an extreme angle for a snapshot.

Of course, deflection shooting is also much easier due to the higher velocity of the rounds. Due to the greater range and velocity, where LW birds pull the target under the nose, RAF/USAAF can see the intended target. Not always, but a good time more than the LW pilots do. The Hispanos pack a bigger punch than the Mausers.

On the other hand, the LW guns are extremely lethal *if they hit*. 4*20mm is not an unusal loadout for FW-A's, and 109s can potentially take either 1 BFG 30mm, or gondolas to get some killing power. The G10 doesn't need it though: hi speed and 13mm's mean (to my delight) that usually one snapshot is enough, due to the very focused hit area of nose guns.

Another aspect that can be commented is the big disparity in terms of JABO. The loadout is one obvious thing to comment. The P-47 can take in an overloaded condition about 2800 - 3000 lb (2*1000, 1*500, 10*HVAR rockets) as well as a toejameload of rounds. The top LW JABO, which is a JABO first and foremost, the 190F8, takes a rather mediocre (in comparison) 1450lb. Half that of the P-47. Climb rate (as it should be) is the same on the two at max loadout. Hopefully HTC will find time to add R4M rockets to the F8.

And the allied rockets are sooo easy to hit with. I'd used them once in a flight, slavoed at 10. Tried deacking a field with a P-38 using rockets only. The film won't show the ack firing at me, but it was.

http://home1.stofanet.dk/stsanta/films/p38jabo.zip for the film.

Even though I am a complete newbie with allied rockets, I manage to hit ack 7/10 times - firing at 3 at the first pass and hitting with all. This isn't a testimony to my skill, but rather an illustration of the very nice capabilities of the allied hardware.

In conclusion, I'll say something that will probably mean I'll be labelled a LW. I feel that there is a bias in favour of the allied fighters. It is not so much the difference makes flying LW a constant 'underdog'  - the D9 and G10 are too good for that, but the difference is decidedly there.

Your mileage may vary.

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2002, 12:08:42 PM »
Leviathn:  I think you are the closest thing to a friend Drex has got.

Think how much better it is to be:

Universally not liked.

rather than be Drex and be:

Universally loathed.

It's all relative.  Compared to Drex you are popular.

Hooligan
« Last Edit: February 15, 2002, 12:13:05 PM by Hooligan »

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2002, 12:17:05 PM »
I dunno why you would ever want R4M rockets for the Fw190F8, afterall those are salvoed not fired one by one.

The only use they would be is to take down, maybe, one fighter hangar max... VH at the very least I'd think.

They are more for bomber killing though and would be a better loadout on the Me-262.

Although I don't see the bias, the fact is that this game is built FOR the 3 country MA war, NOT for the CT. That is a side project, scenarios are also side projects.. the MA is HTC's main focus. This in fact negates any "allied" bias, all sides are equal in the MA where HTC's focus is.

So what benefit does the Fw190F8 gain in the MA from getting all 20+ loadouts it could potentially carry when it still won't compare to the P47D-30's load out... since the MA is where virtually all of the action is, the P47D-30 will always be a priority to use over the 190F8.

So there really is no "bias", it's only percieved by those who are looking for one.
-SW

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2002, 02:13:34 PM »
Wulfe, you're saying that there is no bias because everyone is free to pick whatever plane they want.

Arguing like this: I can only agree with you. That's a rational and reasonable explanation.

However, if you change the way you look at it a little bit and compare planes from various nations, the picture changes, at least for me. The things that tip the scale in the USAAF favour have been mentioned many times before.

About the R4M rockets: I'd fire them in salvo: it'd be great fun. I don't need to snipe acks: I just want more firepower for my FW.

1*500 and 2*250 would be extremely nice too. Sure, it's an overload configuration, but it did happen. And the P-47 can be flown in an overloaded configuration to, so there's precedent.

It's my opinion, of course. HTC have done a great job with this game, and I'm quite sure that they've done their best to eliminate bias. A series of factor play in though: the lack of gun jams, barrel overheating. Ammo counters on all planes. Better low speed performance universally etc etc, as well as something as sound as economics. While AH is indeed a truly international game in the sense that people from all parts of the world fly it (although I must admit that aside from South Africa, I haven't seen any 'original' African play), one country has many more players than the rest: the USA. As Americans tend to be patriotic, it'd be a wise business move to make sure the USAAF planes get modelled correctly,a dn that any advantage they had in real life is accentuated.

Don't think I want to discuss this, even. I'm biased in saying the game is biased. Enough said: I've made my opinion clear, and I am entitled to such a one :). Naturally you're entitled to comment on it. And I'm entitled to ignore any comments I want. And you're entitled to ignore any one who entitedly ignores your entitled comment on his or her entitled opinion. And...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2002, 02:18:03 PM by StSanta »

Offline Apache

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« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2002, 02:23:52 PM »
StSanta. More so to make clear to me your position than to be argumentative, are you saying that HTC is lacking in thier modeling of LW a/c to include all manners of weapons/loadouts and overall performance or that there are certain a/c missing?

If it is the former, what specifically is not modeled, in your opinion, correctly. If the later, what a/c needs added? If I'm missing it altogether, please clue me in.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2002, 02:37:58 PM »
I dunno, I've never been able to say I only like one nationalities aircraft more than the other.

They're all cool/interesting to me so I don't look at what's not modelled, but what is modelled. I've wanted an F4F-3 or P40 for the longest time, and really there aren't that many pacific aircraft. So I guess I could argue that there is an ETO bias. ;)

I think that if you get past expecting what you want, and just being glad you are actually getting anything, then you'd be satisfied just to have something to play that models planes so well- especially the Lw rides. To me, the Fw190A5, is a better performer in AH than in Il-2.

What I'm saying is, if there was indeed a bias, you wouldn't have many Lw planes at all (like the Japanese or Italians) and they wouldn't perform as well as they do right now. As is, the Germans are running #2 as recieving the most attention from HTC. And soon to get even more due to the BoB planeset.
-SW

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2002, 03:00:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
In conclusion, I'll say something that will probably mean I'll be labelled a LW. I feel that there is a bias in favour of the allied fighters.

Why should that label you an LW (is that "Luftwhiner")?  There WAS a bias in favor of allied fighters.  Seems to me you're only saying that AH modeling is accurate.

- oldman

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2002, 03:30:36 PM »
Yeah, Luft Whiner. It's what all Luftwaffe are according to some :D.

The bias I am talking about is an artificial one.

Take the guns, for instance. Sustained long time bursts from .50's heat up the barrels remendously. Iread on a web page that the .50s on the pony couldn't be fired for too long and that such bursts would wear out the barrel and eventually the gun would jam.

Early hispanos had jamming problems too, and late ones suffered problems when firing long bursts. In comparison, the LW Mausers, while not having the knietic energy of the allied guns, or the flat trajectory, were more reliable in terms of jamming.

Talking equal engineering, physics would suggest that it should be that way

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2002, 03:37:18 PM »
Long sustained bursts from any gun will eventually cause a jam, German, Japanese, Italian,etc.

I think what you are referring to, in the case of the P51, was the problem with the positive G gun jams. This was on the B model and fixed by the D model- most B's were field modified when the fix was found, the problem was that there wasn't anything supporting the ammo belts so in a turn while firing the belts would get caught on a structure in the wing and would be "jammed"... not actually in the barrel though. The fix was to put half an ammo canister in the wings to support the belts.

That was the biggest cause of jams on 51s. In Helmut Lipfert's diary he describes many times his Bf109G2 and G6 suffering from gun jams in both the MGs and the hub cannon. So I don't believe for a minute that the German guns won't jam as often if you fire a long sustained burst from them.

The heat is not only from the slug rubbing against the barrel on it's departure from the barrel, but also from the heat of the exploding gun powder- and as long as it's firing the barrel will heat up quick- especially in the 109 since it is not an air cooled gun and is surrounded by an even hotter object- the engine.
-SW

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2002, 04:42:33 PM »
Good points Wulfe. Will try to find that web page again - it cited some studies done.

Might take some time as I got TONS of bookmarks with confusing names that still need to be sorted. Have a bad habit of just bookarmking without categorizing. Then I have a big sorting party. Then I accidentally delete the bookmark file when I format the HD.

:D

Offline Ptah

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« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2002, 04:56:15 PM »
Yo Santa, LTNS.

I am alive.

Mail me.

pt4h@yahoo.com

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2002, 06:30:25 PM »
Hum.

Quote
The 51 should win over all LW fighters in a 1v1 quite easily, except the D9 and the G10. These two are a match for the pony - the G10 only if the LW pilots have plenty of time and can point is nose upwards for a climb for a few minutes, and pretty much the same for the D9. Both can use their acceleration to dictate the fight - something that in a 1v1 is very valuable. If you can dictate the fight, you've won half the battle. And your chances of surviving are even higher than your chances of killing your enemy - simply disengage at will.


I'll fight a P51 in any LW ride, and expect I'll win.  I'll knifefight a P51 in any German ride and expect I'll win.  In my opinion, the G10 and the D9 are FAR superior to the P51 for knife-fighting, although I couldn't tell you any specific tactics I use, since I pretty much just make it up as I go along.  The 109G10 will outturn the P51D in a sustained turn, and the Dora can turn with one for long enough to bust a cap in its ass, plus it accelerates better.  If anything, I feel that it may be the German rides that are 'overmodelled' (with the exception of the Ta152, which is a useless pile of crap in AH) with regard to their historical reputation.  May just be me though.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2002, 03:56:57 AM »
Guess you're a |337 pilot then Urchin

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2002, 07:35:41 AM »
Nah, I didn't say I ALWAYS win, just that I always expect to :).  Even the 190A8, while not incredibly nimble, is manueverable enough that it can almost always score a snapshot on the P51 during a close turn fight.  Of course, you have to actually land the shot, which is most often where I go wrong.