Bomb in Jerusalem

[midnight Target]

Well, we have succeeded in proving that no one is perfect and everyone has been involved in "atrocities" of one kind or another depending on who is defining the atrocity. Is there a way out?

  maybe

[Staga]

Heheheh...

Among the most dramatic potential loyalty conflicts were the encounters between Finnish Jewish officers and Nazi Germans, who were allied with Finland from 1941 to 1944. When a German Colonel Pilgrim had been rescued by a Finnish captain, then still Lieutenant Salomon Klass, the German offered his rescuer his thanks and the Iron Cross, which Klass however declined to accept. When the German heard that his rescuer was a Jew, he nevertheless shook the latter’s hand and said: "I personally have nothing against you as a Jew. Heil Hitler!" (Hannu Rautkallio: "Suomen juutalaisten aseveljeys", Jyväskylä 1989, p. 157-158) ["Finnish Jews as Germany’s Waffenbrüder"].

[Charon]

I'm not a big "conspiracy" promoter, but I frankly believe the crew's version of the incident over the Israeli version -- which is fairly weak in a number of areas and has changed repeatedly over the years. The motive is clear, and the event quite acceptable from a "why would they..." standpoint if you go from the premise that the Liberty was supposed to just disappear into the ocean one day. The problems only begin for Israel when the crew proved that the U.S. Navy worships damage control like no other sea power in the world, even on an old WW2 converted cargo vessel. Check out those sites Eagler, there’s even a strong anti-democrat angle at work with the story

I also don’t like the smear campaigns from Israeli supporters who seem to blindly accept Israel's position over that of American combat heroes. The common practice is an attempt to smear the crew as rabid anti-semites (including the Jewish members apparently) when the story is brought up or when memorials are proposed, like the library in Wisconsin. Yield the big Anti-Semite card to shut up the debate. During the History channel documentary, one Jewish crewman made sure to display his Cross of David when being interviewed.

Charon

Here is the gist of the attack, but the site is worth checking out. It's a lot of material to work through, but well worth the effort.

Eric Margolis, Toronto Sun, April 29, 2001 Toronto Sun | April 29, 2001 A new look at Israel's bombing of the USS Liberty By ERIC MARGOLIS Contributing Foreign Editor On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, the intelligence ship USS Liberty was steaming slowly in international waters, 14 miles off the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli armoured forces were racing deep into the Sinai in hot pursuit of the retreating Egyptian Army. Liberty, a World War II freighter, had been converted into an intelligence vessel by the top-secret U.S. National Security Agency, and packed with the latest signals and electronic interception equipment.

The ship bristled with antennae and electronic "ears" including TRSSCOMM, which delivered real-time intercepts to Washington. It was to monitor communications of the belligerents in the third Arab-Israeli war: Israel and her foes, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights flew over Liberty, which was flying a large American flag. At 1400, waves of Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers attacked with rockets, napalm, and cannon, concentrating on the ship's antennae and electronic dishes. Liberty was left afire, listing. Eight of her crew lay dead, 100 wounded, including Commander William McGonagle.

At 1424, Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the burning Liberty with 20 and 40 mm shells. At 1431 a torpedo hit the Liberty amidships, where the signals intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more Americans died. At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship. Israeli warships poured machine-gun fire into the life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred, a rescue mission by U.S. Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was aborted on orders from the White House. An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and planes returned. Commander McGonagle gave the order to repel boarders, but the Israelis, probably fearing intervention by the Sixth Fleet, departed. Liberty was shattered but defiant, her flag still flying.

Israeli attacks killed 34 U.S. seamen and wounded 171 out of a crew of 297, the worst loss of U.S. naval personnel from hostile action since World War II. Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its forces had committed a "tragic error." Later, Israel said it had mistaken Liberty for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. U.S. Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Adm. Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate. So did three CIA reports. One asserted Israel's defence minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had ordered the attack. Reports that the savaging of Liberty was deliberate were hushed up by President Lyndon Johnson and Defence Secretary Robert McNamara. The White House and Congress accepted Israel's explanation. Israel later paid a token reparation of US$6 million.

But surviving Liberty crew members would not be silenced. They kept demanding an inquiry and tried to tell their story of a deliberate attack to the media. Israel's government worked behind the scenes to thwart these efforts, going so far as having pro-Israeli groups accuse Liberty's survivors of being "anti-Semites" and "Israel-haters." Major TV networks cancelled interviews with the crew. A book about Liberty by James Ennes was dropped from distribution. The attack on Liberty faded into obscurity until last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a U.S. Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft, flying overhead, electronically recorded the attack. The U.S. aircraft crew provides evidence Israeli pilots knew they were attacking a U.S. Navy ship flying the American flag.

Why try to sink a vessel of a benefactor and ally? Most likely because Liberty's intercepts contradicted Israel's claim, made at the war's start on June 5, that Egypt had attacked Israel, and that Israel's air assault on three Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began the war by a devastating, Pearl Harbor-style attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed their air forces. Washington had warned Israel not to invade Syria, which had remained inactive while Israel fought Egypt. Bamford says Israel's planned offensive against Syria was abruptly postponed when Liberty appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was knocked out of action. Israel's claim Syria had attacked first could have been disproved by Liberty. Liberty's intercepts also may have shown Israel seized upon rising Arab-Israeli tensions in May-June, 1967 to launch a long-planned war to invade and annex the West Bank, Jerusalem, Golan and Sinai.

Far more shocking was Washington's response. Writes Bamford: "Despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel attacked the ship and killed American servicemen deliberately, the Johnson administration and Congress covered up the entire incident." Why? Domestic politics. Johnson preferred to cover up the attack rather than anger a key constituency and fiscal backer of the Democrats. Congress was even less eager to touch this "third rail" issue. Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men's heroism - not in the White House, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew members' graves were inscribed, "Died in the Eastern Mediterranean." A member of President Johnson's staff believed that Johnson offered Jewish liberals unconditional backing of Israel, and a coverup of the Liberty attack, in exchange for liberals toning down their criticism of his policies in Vietnam. Israel, which claims it fought a war of self-defence in 1967, will be displeased by Bamford's revelations.

Those who believe Israel illegally occupies the West Bank and Golan will be emboldened. More important, the U.S. government's coverup of the premeditated attack on Liberty has now burst into the open and demands an investigation. After 34 years, the voices of Liberty's dead and wounded seamen must finally be heard.

Eric can be reached by e-mail at margolis@foreigncorrespondent.com. Letters to the editor should be sent to editor@sunpub.com.  

[CptTrips]

Hey thats why I posted the link.  It had that stuff about the fins not murdering their own jews.





But of course, they were aiding and abbetting a country that was murdering them by the millions.  

They had no moral qualms about putting on Waffen SS uniforms.  



But other that that, they were squeaky clean.



(The only reason I wind you up staga is because you're so much fun to watch spin around in circles.  Zieg Heil!)

regards,
Wab

[Krusher]

I imagine that anyone who wanted to could claim that their lands have been illegaly occupied. Why is that term is used so freely when describing the mid east clusterdiddly?

The borders of most of the countries in the Mid east are nothing more than a colonial redistricting project started by the Allies after the war.

Hell The UK occupied most of the free world at one time or another. The US was formed after taking land from the Brits (who took it from the indians) Empires have expanded and withdrawn for centuries and I imagine Israel's tiny little empire will withdraw someday also.

Might may not make right, but it tends to be the way things have been done through out history. Face it if the parties of the mid east wanted peace they were a signature away (arafat's) slightly less than 2 years ago. You can disguies your hatred for the Jews or the Palistineans in any retoric you care too, but the bottom line is that Israel is there to stay. Killing 20 people here or 20 people there is not going to force them out. The same goes for Israel, they can blow up as many houses as they want, but the Palistineans are not going anyplace.

[Staga]

So AKWabbit did you read those quotes and if you did what do you think about them?
I would also like to hear your thoughts about our army now when you learned that we had also jews fighting against russians.

never mind; I type too slowly... I spent too much time to search more information about few things. Maybe I'll post them later

[mrfish]

plato postulated that people's unhappiness arose from their ignorance and seperation from truths.

it's nice to hear people starting from square one and reasoning out their opinion on the middle east - regardless of the outcome.

sadly a few will always go straight to their guidebook of acceptable patriotic statements on israel and quote verbatim the same ol' song and dance about how buddy buddy we are with them. why do you say that? because that's what your father or the guys at the mill said? is it really that much easier to just spit out the provided answer? you get kicked outta your football buddies circle if you don't take the right view?

it doesn't seem worth it really, because keeping public opinion placated and blind only delays the problem.....we wouldn't be worried about mending fences with the arabs if we had thought it through honestly in '48 and every year since. in the end the people have to do the mending or the dieing - not the opinion makers. whther they get it right or wrong they still toss our masses into the blade to solve it.

a few policy makers tend to keep those ideas circulating. how they stir a nation full of minds in such an easy hypnotic fashion has always intrigued me. finally the populace gets sick of hearing about war and death and takes an honest look at the problem.

isn't it funny how when that big public push comes the ideas seem to take a 180? put down your ditto and think man! your mind can be a point not just an open door.point it at the issue for real.

skewed news coverage isn't even softening the growing awareness of israeli sin. look at the former pattern:

day one: israelis rocket some houses. = corresponding news story: "israel struck at terrorists"= public apathy, brain discards story and waits for sports scores

day two: palestinians fight back with a bomb = corresponding news story: evil terrorists initiate attack against israelis, world stunned, outraged and confused. "we just dont understand..."= public outrage sabre rattling

i guarantee you that 80% of americans never made the connection. but they will. moreso every damn day and that gets a

[Eagler]

alright, where's udie?

I was gonna stay out of this thread as it is old rehashed jibberish which doesn't accomplish dink but raise somes blood pressure, but it  was one sided, all against Caligula so I jumped in with my 2 cents. Well maybe .05 cents ...

all - as we are really all the same in the end.. just our ignorance keeps us separated.

maybe our grandchildrens' grandchildren will see a peaceful world .... somehow I doubt it, too many make a living out of division.

[~Caligula~]

This is just as diddlyed up as what the palestinians did.Whoever is responsible must pay for it.

But as in the past it`ll be just the start of the next cycle of death and suffering.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Eagler

maybe our grandchildrens' grandchildren will see a peaceful world .... somehow I doubt it, too many make a living out of division.

I do agree (on the doubt)

Didn't wait the proof long ...

Originally posted by ~Caligula~
This is just as diddlyed up as what the palestinians did.Whoever is responsible must pay for it.

But as in the past it`ll be just the start of the next cycle of death and suffering.

[~Caligula~]

It seems that a lot of you didn't read the last part of my message.
I have a story and you have a story. You don't except mine and I don't yours. The only answer is ridding the land of the Arab foreighners, and readmiting those who are willing to help build up Israels economy and security. Yes that means war.

There is not point for me bringing a deed, because you will throw it out, out of not wanting to hear me.
The Torah is my document, but that is a silly thing....right?
There is a lot of archeological proof, that my ancestors lived there.
But, that is neither here or there, because you couldn't give a dang. Lets fight, we'll send the arabs packing and get it over with.
Maybe we can finally be friends.
--yatziv


btw:this isn`t me but a friend of mine who read this tread ,and wanted to reply

[GRUNHERZ]

Of course the Jews come from that area who in their right mind would dispute this fact. Jews are mid eastern people, they are the same ethnic group as the Palestenians.  But this also means that the Palestenians are from there too.  

Listen you two will have to learn to live together, because one side can't kill all the other side while one isn't allowed to.

[fd ski]

if instr(1,"Of course the Jews come from that area who in their right mind would dispute this fact. Jews are mid eastern people, they are the same ethnic group as the Palestenians.  But this also means that the Palestenians are from there too. Listen you two will have to learn to live together, because one side can't kill all the other side while one isn't allowed to. ","Communist",1)>1 then

"Welcome back Grun"

else

"Syntax error, does not compute !!! Halting Kernel"

end if

[Eagler]

Originally posted by ~Caligula~
This is just as diddlyed up as what the palestinians did.Whoever is responsible must pay for it.

But as in the past it`ll be just the start of the next cycle of death and suffering.

Yes, terrible accident

the difference i see though, is that one side apologizes for killing innocents and I'm pretty sure someone will be held accountable for the misdeed, (even if its just a written record of an oral reprimand in the tank commanders file), while the other side targets women and children, cheers each of their deaths and exalts the murder as a martyr and national hero.....

[~Caligula~]

Yes, terrible accident
the difference i see though, is that one side apologizes for killing innocents and I'm pretty sure someone will be held accountable for the misdeed, (even if its just a written record of an oral reprimand in the tank commanders file), while the other side targets women and children, cheers each of their deaths and exalts the murder as a martyr and national hero.....  

Aggreed
Besides that the IDF`s intention was to kill a hamas leader, not just random civilians like the arabs usually do.
If any of You can`t see the difference,than I don`t know what`s wrong with You people.