Dresden

[midnight Target]

It would seem that there may be another side to this issue. I found this in an Air Force military site.

Casualties among the Dresden populace were inevitably very heavy in consequence of the fires that swept over the city following the RAF area raid on the night of 13/14 February. In addition to its normal population, the city had experienced a heavy influx of refugees from the east and of evacuees from bombings in other areas, particularly from Berlin.52 The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established.53 Contemporary British estimates were that from 8,200 to 16,400 persons were killed and that similar numbers of persons may have been seriously injured.54 Most of the latest German post-war estimates are that about 25,000 persons were killed and about 30,000 were wounded, virtually all of these being casualties from the RAF incendiary attack of 13/14 February.55 Although the latest available post-war accounts play up the “terroristic” aspects of the Dresden bombings, it is significant that they accept much lower casualty figures than those circulated by the Germans immediately after the raids and, from time to time, in the years immediately following the war.56 The most distorted account of the Dresden bombings--one that may have become the basis of Communist propaganda against the Allies, particularly against the Americans, in recent years--was prepared by two former German general officers for the Historical Division, European Command (U.S.A.) in 1948.57 In this account, the number of dead from the Dresden bombings was declared to be 250,000. That this figure may be the probable number of dead, multiplied by ten for the sake of exaggeration, becomes apparent by comparing the weight of the Dresden bombings of 14-15 February 1945 with the total tonnages expanded by the Allies against the six other largest German cities (see Chart A) and by comparing the various estimates of the Dresden casualties with the best estimate of the total casualties suffered by the Germans from all Allied bombings during World War II.

Did I forget to call people names?

[midnight Target]

Here is the chart mentioned above.

City Population in 1939
 Total Bomb Tonnages
 
Berlin
 4,339,000
 67,607.6
 
Hamberg
 1,129,000
 38,687.6
 
Munich
 841,000
 27,110.9
 
Cologne
 772,000
 44,923.2
 
Leipzig
 707,000
 11,616.4
 
Essen
 667,000
 37,938.0
 
Dresden
 642,000
 7,100.5
 

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey estimated that 305,000 persons were killed and 780,000 were wounded as the consequence of all Allied bombings against Germany in World War II,58 from a total Allied bomb expenditure of 3,697,473.59 It may therefore be presumed that the estimates of 25,000 dead and 30,000 wounded, as presented in most of the latest available German estimates of the Dresden bombings, are reasonable and acceptable.

[Hortlund]

But Midnight, did you miss this part: The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established.

After that, any excercise with numbers is just pointless. If you look at my original post you will find this quote:

I wont even bore you all with the numbers of civilians killed. No one will ever agree on the total number of killed in Dresden anyway, it was simply impossible to count them all. And no one will ever know how many refugees were in the city that first night.

Nor will anyone ever really care, no brit or american anyway. After all it was war, and the Germans started it. And what the Germans were doing in the east was far far worse. And take a look at Coventry 1940, the krauts did it first. Nope..those Germans sure had it coming.

[/b]
I find it both sad and pathetic that you would prove me right.

That this figure may be the probable number of dead, multiplied by ten for the sake of exaggeration, becomes apparent by comparing the weight of the Dresden bombings of 14-15 February 1945 with the total tonnages expanded by the Allies against the six other largest German cities

And this doesnt quite cut it either, Hamburg and Dresden stick out, because these two towns are the only ones who suffered unique damage. Let me try to explain.

What happened in Hamburg, was basically that all the incediaries created a big wall of fire that moved downwind over the city.

In Dresden, a "firestorm" was created. Basically all the incediaries created an intensly heated "core-fire". This fire was so hot and so large that it created its own meteorological system around it. Air flowed into this core with hurricane strength. Basically anyone or anything caught outside was sucked into the flames where the intense heat obliterated any remains.  

Now I know that you probably wont believe me, since you never do. But the effects on Hamburg and Dresden are well known, and you should have little problem finding more info on the web.

My point here is this: You cannot simply do a tonnage-comparrison and expect to draw any conclusions from that when the destruction of Dresden was so different from anyting else.

[midnight Target]

I have no idea why you insist on being such a condesending twit Hortlund! All I did was post some interesting information from an arguably reliable source on the subject of this thread.

I could really care less how "Sad and Pathetic" you feel "proving you right" might be. And I apologize for not bowing to your greatness when you told everyone that the numbers of dead will never be agreed upon. I didn't realize you were setting up the rules for the thread.

I am also well aware of the incindiary devices used on Hamburg and Dresden, and the fires that developed. I was about to post one more chart relating to that issue. Now please try to grow up so the discussion doesn't degenerate too far.

Despite the lack of accurate statistics on the number of killed and wounded in the Dresden raid, as well as in other Allied bombings of German cities, it would appear from such estimates as are available that the casualties suffered in the Dresden bombings were not disproportionate to those suffered in area attacks on other German cities. The reports of the United States Bombing Survey give specific estimates of the dead for only four of the German cities which were subject to fire raids during area attacks.60 Assuming that there may probably have been about 1,000,000 people in Dresden on the night the 13/14 February RAF attack,61 these are the comparative death rates in Dresden and the four cities for which the United States Strategic Bombing Survey has given estimates of moralities from incendiary area attacks:62

 City
 Population
 Killed
 Percentage rate
 
Darmstadt
 109,000
 8,100
 .075
 
Kassel
 220,000
 8,659
 .039
 
Dresden
 1,000,000
 25,000
 .025
 
Hamberg
 1,738,000
 41,800
 .024
 
Wuppertal
 400,000
 5,219
 .013

[Hortlund]

What part of "The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established." did you not understand?

What part of " You cannot simply do a tonnage-comparrison and expect to draw any conclusions from that when the destruction of Dresden was so different from anyting else." did you not understand?

Why do you insist on trying to post numbers that are guesswork at most? There are between 1 000 000 up to 4 500 000 Germans unacounted for after the war. No one knows what happened to them. Perhaps some of them died in the bombing raids where we dont know how many people perished?

Cant you just leave it at "The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established."?

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Hortlund
What part of "The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established." did you not understand?

I understand it completely. When were you made the almighty? Are you saying I may not try to post information that attempts to establish a reasonably accurate body count? If so I must be in the wrong place for an OPEN discussion. Damn! You act as if "IF HORTLUND SAID IT IT MUST NOT BE QUESTIONED" is painted on the Sistine Chapel Ceiling!

What part of " You cannot simply do a tonnage-comparrison and expect to draw any conclusions from that when the destruction of Dresden was so different from anyting else." did you not understand?

I guess you decided to post your little rant before reading my last post. Go back to see what it says before you accuse me of basing the information solely on tonnage. I even made all the refrences to incidiary in bold for you.

Why do you insist on trying to post numbers that are guesswork at most? There are between 1 000 000 up to 4 500 000 Germans unacounted for after the war. No one knows what happened to them. Perhaps some of them died in the bombing raids where we dont know how many people perished?

Guesswork? By who's standards? I believe I have found a reliable source for these numbers. The number of dead in Dresden was no higher (by %) than Hamburg and lower (by %) than in Kassel or Darmstadt.

Cant you just leave it at "The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established."?

Nope, because it is the horrific numbers of casualties quoted by some sources that fuels this debate. Once the actual numbers are posted it becomes only a question of the military significance of the target.
And BTW I am horrified by even the 25,000 deaths. That would be equal to 8 WTC attacks in 2 days.
One other issue is the method by which the huge claims of 250,000 dead originated.

Read this:

It is, however, understandable that the surviving Dresden populace should have regarded the bombings as even more devastating and death-dealing than they actually were,69 and that the bombings were seized upon by the German authorities as a means of conducting psychological warfare against the Allies in the closing months of the war. The distorted and highly exaggerated accounts of the admittedly grim casualties suffered in Dresden issued by German propaganda agencies immediately following the bombings,70 coupled with an inadvertent and misinformed Allied news release concerning the Dresden and other simultaneous bombings, let to an investigation by Headquarters, Army Air Forces, of the purpose and character of the current American strategic bombing operations in Europe.

32. At a meeting with Allied press correspondents on 16 February 1945 a member of the SHAEF public relations staff released inaccurate and misleading statements concerning the current Allied bombing operations against German cities, primarily against communications centers, among which Dresden was obviously included.71 American press accounts of the remarks made to newsmen at SHAEF implied that the American and British bombing forces had begun a deliberate campaign of indiscriminate terror bombing” against German cities, thereby deviating from long-established policies concerning the employment of Allied strategic air power.72 Confirmed with the sensational American news stories and the German propaganda “plants” in the foreign press, Headquarters, Army Air Forces, in Washington, at once demanded from American air authorities in Europe a full explanation of the basis of the lurid press accounts and insisted that American bombing forces must not deviate from official bombing policy, either as to objectives and priorities or as to bombing methods.73

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I guess you decided to post your little rant before reading my last post. Go back to see what it says before you accuse me of basing the information solely on tonnage. I even made all the refrences to incidiary in bold for you.

[/b]
Actually, no. As I tried to say in my post, Dresden and Hamburg were unique. In no other bombing raid during the war did those two conditions occur. In all other bombing raids with incediaries, lots of fires broke out. But no where else did all these fires combine into a "wall of fire" (Hamburg) or "firestorm" (Dresden). Now, as I said, you probably wont take my word for this, so please go check all the internet sources you want.

Do you understand why I insist that it is pointless then, to do a tonnage comparrison, even if you are comparing with other raids using incediaries?

Guesswork? By who's standards? I believe I have found a reliable source for these numbers. The number of dead in Dresden was no higher (by %) than Hamburg and lower (by %) than in Kassel or Darmstadt.

[/b]
Stop this nonsense. NO seriously, stop posting drivel like this.

Take a look at what you said at the top of your own post. Something along the lines of "The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established", nevertheless you proceed to compare the number of dead in Dresden (which is unknown by your own admission) with the number of dead in other raids. It is ludicrious.

Nope, because it is the horrific numbers of casualties quoted by some sources that fuels this debate. Once the actual numbers are posted it becomes only a question of the military significance of the target.

And BTW I am horrified by even the 25,000 deaths. That would be equal to 8 WTC attacks in 2 days.
One other issue is the method by which the huge claims of 250,000 dead originated.

[/b]
So first you are saying "You are right, the exact number of casulaties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established" and then you proceed to say that "once the actual numbers are posted it becomes a question of the military significance of the target". But I thought we had agreed that that number wont ever be known? What are you trying to say...really?

Midnight, I have been staring at your post now trying to make some sense of it. What are you trying to say, what is it that you want? I wrote this in my original post:
I wont even bore you all with the numbers of civilians killed. No one will ever agree on the total number of killed in Dresden anyway, it was simply impossible to count them all. And no one will ever know how many refugees were in the city that first night.

Why are you so provoked by this? Why is it so impossible for you to accept the fact that we wont ever know how many people perished in Dresden that night?

Read this:
It is, however, understandable that the surviving Dresden populace should have regarded the bombings as even more devastating and death-dealing than they actually were,69 and that the bombings were seized upon by the German authorities as a means of conducting psychological warfare against the Allies in the closing months of the war. The distorted and highly exaggerated accounts of the admittedly grim casualties suffered in Dresden issued by German propaganda agencies immediately following the bombings,70 coupled with an inadvertent and misinformed Allied news release concerning the Dresden and other simultaneous bombings, let to an investigation by Headquarters, Army Air Forces, of the purpose and character of the current American strategic bombing operations in Europe.

32. At a meeting with Allied press correspondents on 16 February 1945 a member of the SHAEF public relations staff released inaccurate and misleading statements concerning the current Allied bombing operations against German cities, primarily against communications centers, among which Dresden was obviously included.71 American press accounts of the remarks made to newsmen at SHAEF implied that the American and British bombing forces had begun a deliberate campaign of indiscriminate terror bombing” against German cities, thereby deviating from long-established policies concerning the employment of Allied strategic air power.72 Confirmed with the sensational American news stories and the German propaganda “plants” in the foreign press, Headquarters, Army Air Forces, in Washington, at once demanded from American air authorities in Europe a full explanation of the basis of the lurid press accounts and insisted that American bombing forces must not deviate from official bombing policy, either as to objectives and priorities or as to bombing methods.73

Ok, I have read it. And it doesnt seem to be very objective at all actually. Rather some half hearted attempt to somehow blame German propaganda for the bad PR.

Midnight, no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish, Dresden will not turn into some German propaganda myth. Nor will the stain on the US and UK go away. Live with it.

[Wotan]

all do respect i have read that report before and its hardly anymore credible the any others.  The fact is no one knows. That havent found all the bodies of the people missing from wtc. They know who most are. In dresden the population had swelled do to refugees moving west to escape the russians.

I posted the numbers of casualties that Shaef expected  from such a raid. The fact they didnt hit their target numbers or they after the fact may or may not have tried to play down the casulties doesn't obsolve them from the responsibility from targeting civilians in what they termed at the time were "terror" raids.

The dehousing policy of Harris was ineffective in breaking the will of the german people or to bringing an end to the war. Harris was opposed to diverting his bombers to other tasks which were proven to have added the defeat of the Nazis. The attacks on production of oil, transportation, communications and to a smaller degree war industries.

Heres a series of quote by the Nazis themselves as to the effect of strategic bombing.

In the days immediately following the surrender of Germany, the Allies interrogated numerous high-ranking Germans.  All were asked what chief factor led to their country's defeat.   Here is a sampling and summary of what they said:

Hjalmar Schacht,  Finance Minister:
  "Your bombers destroyed German production."

Adolf Galland:
"Allied bombing of our oil industries had the greatest effect."

Gen. Jahn, Commander in Lombardy:
"The attacks on the German transportation system."

Generaloberst Heinz Guderian, Inspector General of armored units:
"Lack of German air superiority; the German Air Force was unable to cope with Allied air power in the West."

Generalmajor Albrect von Massow, Luftwaffe Training Commander:
 "The attacks on German oil production."

Generalmajor Herhudt von Rohden, chief of historical section, Luftwaffe
General Staff:
"Strategic bombing.  It was the decisive factor in the long run."

Generalmajor Kolb, in charge of technical training, Air Ministry:  "The power of Allied day and night bombing."

General Ingenieur Spies, chief engineer of Luftflotte 10:  "Strategic disruption of communications."

Generaloberst Georg Lindemann, commander of troops in Denmark:
"Allied air superiority."

Gen. Feldmarschall Karl Gerd von Rundstedt, commander in chief in the West:
"Three factors:  the superiority of your air force, which made all
movement in daylight impossible; lack of motor fuel so that panzers were unable to move; and the systematic destruction of all railway communications so that it was impossible to bring even one single railroad train across the Rhine."

Gen. der Infanterie Georg Thomas, chief of the German Office of
Production:
"Without strategic bombing, the war would have lasted years longer."

Fritz Thyssen, leading German steel producer:
 "I knew that German steel production would be bombed and destroyed--as it was."

Gen. der Flieger Hans-Georg von Seidel, C in C, Luftflotte 10:
"The decisive factor was disruption of German transport communications."

Generaleutnant Karl Jacob Veith, in charge of flak training:
"The destruction of the oil industry."

Generalmajor Ibel, commander of 2 Fighter Div.:
 "Allied air superiority allowed everything else to happen."

General Wolff, SS Obergruppenfuehrer:
 "The ever-increasing disruption of production and transportation
facilities starved the frontlines to death."

Generaloberst von Vietinghoff, supreme commander SW Italy:  "Allied air attacks on the aircraft and fuel industries."

Oscar Henschel, industrialist:
"American bombing caused our production figures to drop considerably."

Unnamed director of Germany's steel combine:
"The virtual flattening of the great steel city of Dusseldorf contributed at least 50 percent to the collapse of the war effort."

Feldmarschall Robert Ritter von Greim, Goering's successor:
 "The destruction of the Luftwaffe."

Unnamed general manager of Junkers:
"The attacks on the ball-bearing industry disorganized Germany's entire war production."

General Feldmarschall Hugo Sperrle, C in C Luftflotte 3:
"Allied bombing, particularly of communications."

Unnamed executive at Siemens-Schuckert:
"In March, 1943, one bomb ignited the oil tanks in our transformer plant, which we believe is the largest in the world, and completely stopped production of the large type of transformers needed for chemcial and steel plants.  We were the sole manufacturer of such machines.  We were never able to make them again."

Gen. der Flieger Karl Bodenschatz, chief of Ministeramt, Luftwaffe high command:
"I am very much impressed with the accuracy of American daylight bombing, which really concentrated on military targets, stations and factories, to the exclusion of civilian targets."

Christian Schneider, manager of the Leuna Works, producer of synthetic petroleum products:
"The 8th AF twice knocked out the plant and the RAF did once.  Production, once resumed,  was a pitifully thin trickle."

Alfred Krupp, weapons maker:
 "The Allies made a great mistake in failing to bomb rail lines and canals much earlier.  Transport was the great bottleneck in production.  Plants can be and were dispersed, but the Reichsbahn couldn't put its lines underground."

General Dollman, diarist of the 7th Army high command:
"The continual control of the field of battle by Allied air forces makes daylight movement impossible and leads to the destruction from air of our preparations and attacks."

Herman Goering:  "[USAAF] precision bombing had a greater effect on the defeat of Germany than [RAF] area bombing because destroyed cities could be evacuated but destroyed industry was difficult to replace.  [8th AF] selection of targets was good.  Without the U.S. [Army]  Air Force, the war would still be going on."

The facts are there. The terror bombing of civilians did very little to end the war or save allied soldiers. The planners of the Dresden Raid were aware of this. I have quoted numerous sources in my other posts in this thread that show that. Churchill himself realized it for what it was. Harris' own life after the war should tell you something.

Arguing over the specific number of dead women and  children may make make you feel better but it doesnt change the fact that the fire bombing of dresden was a terrorist act committed against civilians.

[midnight Target]

Stop this nonsense. NO seriously, stop posting drivel like this.

Take a look at what you said at the top of your own post. Something along the lines of "The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established", nevertheless you proceed to compare the number of dead in Dresden (which is unknown by your own admission) with the number of dead in other raids. It is ludicrious.

Nonsense? roadkill! The post said, "That the exact number may never be known", then went on to establish a logically derived estimate. The EXACT NUMBER is in question, not the estimate. Which part of THAT statement don't You understand?

And the numbers you have in your infinite wisdom called "Nonsense" and "drivel" come directly from  the:

USAF Historical Division
Research Studies Institute
Air University

Midnight, no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish, Dresden will not turn into some German propaganda myth. Nor will the stain on the US and UK go away. Live with it.

In the words of that elderly gentleman who once was our President.....There you go again. Do you know what condesending means? Do you do it on purpose, or are you just naturally rude?

BTW I'm not so sure there is a stain, but I am willing to concede that there might be. Are you willing to concede that there might not be? I doubt it.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target

Nonsense? roadkill! The post said, "That the exact number may never be known", then went on to establish a logically derived estimate. The EXACT NUMBER is in question, not the estimate. Which part of THAT statement don't You understand?

[/b]
But it is nonsense. The exact number WILL never be known. After that, all you are doing is guessing. One extreme (USAF) want to pick low numbers for some reason, the other extreme (Irvin) want to pick high numbers for some reason. But basically what they all are doing is pulling numbers out of thin air.
 
Ok, so the USAF comes up with one estimate. SO WHAT? There are other estimates too you know. I think I posted somewhere that the estimated numbers vary from 35 000 up to 250 000.

Can you just leave it at that? Why are you so obsessed with getting the number of victims at Dresden as low as possible?

I say: "No one will ever know the exact number"
You say: "that is true, but there are lots of guesses"
I say: "but those are only guesses"
You say "yes, but its the USAF that has done the guesswork".

And the numbers you have in your infinite wisdom called "Nonsense" and "drivel" come directly from the:

USAF Historical Division
Research Studies Institute
Air University

[/b]
Now there is a pillar of unbiased truth!

Hmm..what airforce was involved in the slaughter of Dresden in the first place? Anyway, see above on who does the guessing.

In the words of that elderly gentleman who once was our President.....There you go again. Do you know what condesending means? Do you do it on purpose, or are you just naturally rude?

[/b]
Do YOU know what condesending means?
LOL, you are too funny man. Hypocritical to the core.

You know, when we talk about something on this board, you always try to claim the moral high ground. And you always fail miserably because in our latest arguments you are stuck with defending weird and hopelessly biased positions. "all Germans were nazis", "no one died in Dresden" etc etc.

BTW I'm not so sure there is a stain, but I am willing to concede that there might be. Are you willing to concede that there might not be? I doubt it.

[/b]
Are you a politician? "I am willing to concede that there might be"
-or in other words "blah blah blah".

No, I am not willing to concede that the slaughter of an unknown number of women and children using heavy bombers and incediaries for no military purpose should not cast a stain on the perps. It was a henious crime, plain and simple. And the only reason the guilty ones are left unpunished is because they belonged to the winning side in the war.

Btw Midnight, I cant help but notice that there are alot of other things in my post that you did not reply to. Does that mean that you think Im right about those things? (Im especially interested in my statement that a tonnage comparrisson is pointless because of the unique nature of the firestorm that was created).

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Hortlund
"blah blah blah".

Btw Midnight, I cant help but notice that there are alot of other things in my post that you did not reply to. Does that mean that you think Im right about those things? (Im especially interested in my statement that a tonnage comparrisson is pointless because of the unique nature of the firestorm that was created).

I guess you just didn't read the post on percentages of population killed in incediary attacks. Nothing about tonnage was mentioned. Hamburg and Dresden had similar percentages of their population killed, and the estimate of the population of Dresden was increased to 1 million to account for refugees.

And I guess you also failed to notice that the estimate of 25,000 deaths was not the lowest figure quoted. The British estimate was as low as 8,200. The 25,000 figure was also "the latest German post-war estimate"


How about this question:
Can an attack on a city center ever be considered a viable option in total war?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target


I guess you just didn't read the post on percentages of population killed in incediary attacks. Nothing about tonnage was mentioned. Hamburg and Dresden had similar percentages of their population killed, and the estimate of the population of Dresden was increased to 1 million to account for refugees.

And I guess you also failed to notice that the estimate of 25,000 deaths was not the lowest figure quoted. The British estimate was as low as 8,200. The 25,000 figure was also "the latest German post-war estimate"


How about this question:
Can an attack on a city center ever be considered a viable option in total war?

This is like talking to a brick wall.

HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION AT DRESDEN WAS KILLED WHEN WE DONT KNOW THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS?

And we can change the subject if you want, but first give up this part of the discussion please.

[midnight Target]

You are funny Steve. You asked a direct question, I answered it directly and you say I'm the brick wall? What exactly do you want me to give up? The logically derived estimate of 25,000 deaths? Why should I "give it up"?

Hortlund "you can't compare tonnage ...it was a fire bombing"
Tahgut "Ok here are percentage numbers of fire bombed cities"
Hortlund "Nonsense, Drivel.. the fire was different in Dresden and Hamburg"
Tahgut "But the comparison includes Hamburg"
Hortlund "Nonsense, Drivel... the USAF is biased"
Tahgut "But the estimate is GERMAN"
Hortlund "Nonsense, Drivel ... you are a brick wall!"

And one more thing mister "You need to read" , I never once said "All Germans are Nazi's". I did try to have a discusion with you regarding the "German Democracy of 1945". You need to quit using such a broad brush to paint those who dare to disagree with you.

[Hortlund]

Midnight. Please read my posts before you answer them.

Have I ever said that the number of victims in Hamburg is unknown? What I said was that Hamburg and Dresden were unique, each in its own way. Therefore, neither Hamburg or Dresden would be a good candidate for a strict tonnage comparrisson.

And you quote me wrong in your post. Now I dont know if you do that on purpose, or if it is a honest mistake.

What would be the difference between a German estimate, a USAF estimate, a BC estimate, a revisionist estimate, your estimate or my estimate?

No matter who makes the estimate, it is still nothing other than pulling number out of the air. Now, please, just say "Ok, we will never know the exact number of victims at Dresden. We can guess, but we will never know"

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
And one more thing mister "You need to read" , I never once said "All Germans are Nazi's". I did try to have a discusion with you regarding the "German Democracy of 1945". You need to quit using such a broad brush to paint those who dare to disagree with you.

I apologize for that. I got you confused for that other guy (Pongo).