Author Topic: Dresden  (Read 3992 times)

Offline Charon

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« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2002, 06:42:35 PM »
StSanta, one thing that keeps getting overlooked is that a lot of what we know about the relative success or failure of any bombing approach was learned after the fact. The bombing surveys did not come out until after the war. At the time, both strategic and dehousing were considered to be more successful than they were (at least directly, see ancillary benefits below). However, they were very successful in some areas (petroleum) and provided at least short-term disruption in most areas attacked -- a week, two weeks, a month -- it all added up. As I pointed out in a previous thread, the terror concept was also still alive and well, in some circles at least. Hitler, for example, seems to have held on to it longer than most with his wasteful V-weapon programs. Terror hadn't been "soundly" rejected, though it was certainly questioned.

There were a lot of ancillary factors as well:

1. You have to factor in a reduction in quality, reliability and service life with the weapons produced.

2. You have to factor in the impact on resources with having to defend the homeland. Each plane defending the homeland couldn't be used out East. Each experienced pilot killed couldn't be replaced (some claim that this aspect made the campaign successful in its own right). Even the "bombing round the clock" concept, that started as a sales pitch to save daylight bombardment, caused a increased dilution of the defense infrastructure compared to a daylight only approach. All of these factors made D-day that much easier, the Russian advance that much easier,  and helped speed the end of the war.

3. The fact that we don't know what the final German production numbers would have been without the disruption, drain from relocation, death of skilled workers, and the damage of heavy equipment that couldn't be replaced or relocated. Remember too, those surging production numbers late in the war reflect, in part, Germany's belated switch to a war economy and I believe Speer's partial cleaning of up of the corruption and lack of coordination that had plagued German industry earlier. 25 fewer submarines or several hundred fewer Tigers here or there, and the war is that much shorter with fewer allied causalities.

Hindsight is great, but what's the alternative at the time? Allow unhindered production and say: "The lives of my soldiers and sailors and the life and well being of all those people living in the occupied territories is less important than the lives of German civilians who are supporting their country's war of conquest?" How do you sell that to the families of your soldiers, whose husbands and sons wouldn't even be putting their lives on the line in the first place if it wasn't for Axis aggression? In my estimation, a soldier fighting in defense or to liberate occupied lands is no less valuable than a German housewife. And hell, even in America, hardly the worst sufferer of the war, we lost over 3 "World Trade Centers" a month in war dead.

In an industrial war, one lasting half a decade, production has to be stopped. Tanks that are not made don't kill your tank crews. Torpedoes that aren't fired, because a submarine is not in existence to be on station, allow your troops and weapons to arrive where they are needed. You ask why population center's weren't attacked in Iraq? No need to with no industrial production base. Once a tank is killed on the battlefield it is not going to be replaced.

And speaking of terror. While looking up some facts I came across a photo. I'll post it below but be warned, it is GRAPHIC. Each day the war went on the terror continued in the occupied territories, and bombs weren't involved.

Each day the war was shortened, the more innocent NONAGRESSORS that survived. You'll notice a woman, wounded in a massacre but still alive and fighting for her life in a pit of death. You'll also notice that her terror is finally about to end. Somebody made the bullets in the killer's rifle, the transport that brought the killers East, the ME-109s that spearheaded the advance, and even the dashing uniforms worn by those heroes.

I've seen similarly horrible pictures of German housewives and children killed in an air raid. That is very tragic and horrible. But I would exchange their lives, as a necessary evil, to save as many lives as possible from an unnecessary evil. I would even be fairly generous about the ratio. I would even do it if I didn't know for sure it would be 100 percent effective But strategic bombing did have, in many facets including its main purpose, more than a minor effect on the length of the war. Tragic, but not as tragic as stopping Nazi aggression as rapidly as possible. [edit: I think the statistics still show that FAR more innocents died at the hands of the Nazis than were killed stopping the Nazis, even if you go so far as to consider every civilian and even every soldier as being completely innocent and without blame in the actions of the state.]

Charon
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« Last Edit: March 09, 2002, 07:59:39 PM by Charon »

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #121 on: March 11, 2002, 09:50:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


Did you give up our other discussion oldman?


Sort of.  Seemed to me that everyone who was interested had laid out his view on whether Nazi planes were really Nazi planes.  And fewer were staying interested.  I am content to let you have the last word in that thread.  We must start a new one.

- Oldman

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #122 on: March 11, 2002, 10:52:23 AM »
Yeah, well, you wont have to wait long. :)

Im writing a short essay here as a reply to Charons post. I dont think I'll be able to post it today though (big day in court tomorrow) but I'll try to have it finished by tomorrow night.

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2002, 09:27:50 AM »
Quote
Hortlund - Neither can you say "damn Germans, they killed innocent women and children", and then turn a blind eye to the Soviet monstrosities when they entered German soil in 45
 Did you really say "mostrosities"? If I were you I would be just plain grateful that advancing Russian troops left anyone alive after what Germans did in Russia. To get the idea of what "monstrosity" really means you'd need to visit some sites where German troops demonstarted how "civilised" Europeans deal with people who can't fight back. Keep in mind that before Soviet Army entered (what sounds almost like a holy grail) "German soil" it had kicked nazi swines out off Russian territory. Also helps to keep in mind the simple fact that on 22 June 1941 it was Germans who attacked Russia bombing cities and towns and killing your-ever-so-loved civilians in their thousands. Or don't they count?

One's just gotta love the whole discussion - a Swede is moralizing about rights or wrongs of WWII, laying blaim left, right and centre. Am I forgetting something here or were you ... err... not involved?

:eek:

p.s. Absolutely no disrespect to the Germans as a nation.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2002, 01:20:44 PM »
Charon pretty cheesy to put that kinda picture up. I could do the same with dresden pictures.

But nevertheless look at the uniforms and the guns that them soldiers have............

Looks Russian to me atleast provide the source of your picture and any caption that is with it.

I dont think any here is making any excuse for Germany atrocities so quit mixing up the discussion.

Dresden as admitted by those who planned was a terror raid. Reread my posts and try to address that and maybe keep it under a thousand words. After about 200 words of your drivel I stop reading and skip to the next post.

Dresden didnt shorten the war.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2002, 09:34:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
That a war is taking place does not exempt the acts taken within it from coming under scrutiny in the ethic/moral microscope.


I don't believe I said that war did exempt the acts Santa.

Quote
That it does seem to matter, later wars are clear indictors of. We didn't see too much terror bombing of Iraq, for instance.


Well, think about that. The Coalition that bombed Iraq STILL killed civilians. Despite all the "smart" weapons and "careful" targeting, civilians still died. Not a huge WW2 bombing raid type number but more than enough. So was it OK to kill them, since the Coalition wasn't "terror bombing" per se?

Further, it was such a clear case of overmatched adversaries with a predictably short timeline (the Coalition pretty much ran out of strategic targets in short order and tactical targets  were cut to an easily "serviced" number relatively quickly... the Coalition knew it was going to win. It didn't actually realize how fast it was going to go though.

Had it drug out 6 years, would things have been different?  We'll never know now.

Quote
Circumstances ust be taken into account, but all actions can be judged, none are exempt from judgement.

And the High Lords behind their desks ordering troops to kill civilians should keep that in mind.


Judge any and and all you like and the facts will still remain.

Without someone starting a war, there can be no "war crimes".

Once a war starts, there WILL be war crimes, attributable to all participants.

So look for the root cause. War = war crimes. Inevitably.

No war = no war crimes. Indisputably.

There's no discussion of the basic history. Adolph Hitler KNEW there was the risk of war during the Austrian Anschluss, the occupation of Czechoslovakia and the invasion of Poland. He and his henchmen may have spread the BS around to cover their actions but any and all of these could be considered causus belli and they knew it.

With that knowledge came the knowledge that if they didn't win, the horrors of war would be visited upon the German populace. Even if they DID win, they knew that Germans.. soldiers and civilians were going to die.

They made the decision to commit the country to war, knowing all these things.

Therefore, Hitler bear the responsibility for starting the war and with that, all the rest.

So take all the moralizing and the various Geneva conventions bind them in volumes done in fine leather and start passing them out......

Give some to Israel and Palestine.

Give some to the Muslims and Hindus in India.

Give some to the Bosnia Christians and Muslims.

Give some to the Sudanese Muslims and Christians.

Give some to the Coalition forces and Al-quaeda in Afghanistan.

Give some to the Phillipine government and Abu Sayyad.

Give some to the Chechens and the Russian government.

Then see if anything changes.  ;)

Man is inhumane and war is his most inhumane instrument. Once it starts, the only time actions will be judged is in the courts of the victors....... with predictable results.

... and it won't make any difference at all to the slain.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Seeker

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« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2002, 10:04:24 PM »
There's still a fundamental point being missed.

There's looneys, nutters and bad bastards in every human gathering. The difference is the sponsoring culture.

The fact is that right from the start the Allied forces recognised the concept of war crimes (which may or may not match our current criteria almost a centuary later); and prosecuted those held responsible. There was even a motion to prosecute Harris, and as has been mentioned, there was opposition in the house of parliament to some of his planning.

None of that happened on the Axis side. I'm no historian, but I really can't think of the any examples of any Axis prosecutions for war crimes. Not one. Hopefully our learned friend will enlighten me.

Not after the invasion of Poland.

Not after the refugee colums were straffed in France.

The essential difference between the Allied side and the philosophy espoused by some of the posters in here is that while war is hell, and humans fail, the Allied still held some moral scruples, even if they weren't scrupulous enough. The Axis had none.

I say again: It was possible at any time to avoid the Allied transgressions - one could cease waging war. It was never at any time possible to avoid the Axis. The facts of one's existance was in of it's self a death sentance.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #127 on: June 18, 2002, 02:44:16 PM »
bump

Subject came up in Aircraft forum, no point in rediscussing these issues there.

Charon
« Last Edit: June 18, 2002, 02:48:44 PM by Charon »

Offline wsnpr

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Re: Dresden
« Reply #128 on: June 19, 2002, 12:48:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
I thought it would be better to continue the discussion in here...

Lets take a look at the overall situation in Europe in early February 1945. Does it look good or bad for the Germans? Any signs of any potential counterattack throwing the allies back into the sea, or the Russians back into Russia? Any signs of increased German production, any signs of stubborn resistance in the west, or any great defensive lines in the east? Not really huh.

Well lets take a look at the Luftwaffe then. Can they take to the air in vast numbers and perhaps stop or disrupt any allied air missions? Any signs of any new fighter units going active? Do they even have fuel enough to sortie more than maybe 20 fighters at the same time? Not really.

Well then, lets take a look at Dresden. Prewar population of roughly 620.000. With all the refugees from the east its population is around 1.000.000 in early Feb 1945. Most of these refugees are simply passing through on their way west. Sleeping outside in freezing weather, carrying with them all their remaining belongings. Any German units in the area? Nope, as good as every available German soldier is at the front. Dresden is however protected by antiaircraft defenses in the form of antiaircraft guns and searchlights.

How about production then? Any industries in the area? Well..yes. Dresden has at least 110 factories and industrial enterprises that are legitimate military targets, and they are reported to be employing 50,000 workers. Among these are some dispersed aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabric Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); the Zeiss Ikon A.G., these are the guys who make the excellent zeiss optics for the German Tiger tanks, some other factories engaged in the production of electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel A.G.), gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke), and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler).

Anyway, where is that place located? Situated 71 miles E.S.E. from Leipzig and 111 miles S. of Berlin. Two major transport routs intersects in the city. The north-south axis between Germany and Czechoslovakia runs through the valley and gorge of the Elbe River, and the east-west axis along the foot of the central European uplands. In addition to this, Dresden is the junction of three great trunk routes in the German railway system: (1) Berlin-Prague-Vienna, (2) Munich-Breslau, and (3) Hamburg-Leipzig. As a key center in the dense Berlin-Leipzig railway complex, Dresden is connected to both cities by two main lines.
So, the case against Dresden so far, some industries, a handful of which might be considered secondary targets for any bomber mission. And rated as a key communications center together with Berlin, Leipzig and Munich when it comes to any east-west troop movements.

Enter the Russians.
At Yalta, the Soviet General Antonov made three specific requests for Allied assistance to the Russians.
"Our wishes are:
[SNIP]
b. By air action on communications hinder the enemy from carrying out the shifting of his troops to the East from the Western Front, from Norway, and from Italy (In particular, to paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig)."

Well then, the Russians wants the allies to prevent troop movement from the west to the east. Hey, look at Dresden. The marshalling yards has been bombed twice before. On 7/10/44 8th airforce send 30 bombers who delivered 72.5 tons on target. Then on 16/1/45 the brave 8th returned with 133 B-17's, this time virtually obliterating the marshalling yards with 322 tons of bombs, 42 of which were incendiaries. We know that the marshalling yards were not in operation less than a month after this strike. In fact there aren't that many trains running at all in Germany in Feb 1945. But lets not care about such petty details now. We must stop every possible troop movement from west to east. Berlin and Leipzig has already been hit hard many times. Berlin by a staggering 67,607.3 tons, and Leipzig by a modest 11,616.4 tons. Now its time for Dresden.

So...
On the night between the 13/14th of Feb 1945 the RAF Bomber Command conducted its glorious night raid on Dresden. 722 heavy bombers dropped 1477 tons of high explosive and 1182 tons of incendiary bombs on Dresden. Naturally they did not aim for anything in particular in the city. Heck no. The night bombing is still so inaccurate that the smallest thing they can hope to hit is a city, forget trying to target any marshalling yards. No sir. Aim for the city center. Still using the good 'ol bomber stream tactic, the bombers came in individually over the target in a long long line. The night bombings went on for the better part of the night, lasting several hours. Leaving behind what can only be described as I dunno...the scene of a crime?

The bombings resulted in fires that did great damage to the city proper, particularly in the older and more densely built up areas. Early official Allied post-strike reports estimated that 85 per cent of the fully built-up city area was destroyed, that the old part of the city, which comprised the greater portion of the built-up areas was largely wiped out, that the majority of buildings in the inner suburbs was gutted, and that in the outer suburbs, few buildings were effected by the area bombing attack. Virtually all major public buildings appeared heavily gutted or severely damaged. Public utilities, and facilities such as slaughter houses, warehouses, and distribution centers, were severely affected. A very large number of the city’s industrial facilities were destroyed or severely damaged, with perhaps a four-fifth’s reduction in the productive capacity of the arms plants. Later British assessments, which were more conservative, concluded that 23 per cent of the city’s industrial buildings were seriously damaged and that 56 per cent of the non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings) had been heavily damaged. Of the total number of dwelling units in the city proper, 78,000 were regarded as demolished, 27,700 temporarily uninhabitable but ultimately repairable, and 64,500 readily repairable from minor damage. This later assessment indicated that 80 per cent of the city’s housing units had undergone some degree of damage and that 50 per cent of the dwellings had been demolished or seriously damaged.

So, dawn breaks on the 14th of February. No on can imagine the scenes in Dresden this morning. Anyway, as the firebrigades (or whats left of them anyway) of Dresden do their best to control some of the fires the 8th Airforce are preparing for the days strike. While the people of Dresden are fighting for their lives, trying to survive, trying to save their familymembers 316 B-17s are warming their engines. They arrive around noon. The citizens of the doomed city have no warning before the strike. No air sirens to alert them to the danger, everything in the city is already destroyed.

From the blue sky comes the second wave of destruction. This time a modest 295 tons of high explosive bombs, combined with 295 tons of incendiaries rains down on the city. This time however, the damage is concentrated in the marshalling yards area, after all, the bombers are B-17's, with their excellent Norden sights they actually have some chance of hitting what they are aiming at. The dense smoke over Dresden however makes aiming difficult, so the bombs are scattered all over the city once more.

Home they go, the brave crews of the mighty eight. Heroes of WWII, who took the fight to the Germans, and broke the back of the German war industry.

But they return of course. The next day 211 B-17's return with their load of 467 tons of High explosives. I'm not really sure why they did return a third time...a coup de graze perhaps?

I wont even bore you all with the numbers of civilians killed. No one will ever agree on the total number of killed in Dresden anyway, it was simply impossible to count them all. And no one will ever know how many refugees were in the city that first night.

Nor will anyone ever really care, no brit or american anyway. After all it was war, and the Germans started it. And what the Germans were doing in the east was far far worse. And take a look at Coventry 1940, the krauts did it first. Nope..those Germans sure had it coming.

I think I'll end this post with a quote that pretty much sums up the brittish view on things.

I really dont understand how any BC crew member who flew over Dresden, or any other German city for that matter, could ever look at himself in the mirror again without feeling disgust. But then again, that's just me.


I just came upon this post and haven't read any of the following posts. Hortlund, in this case I agree wholeheartedly (surprise). It was a calculated mission to take out as many of the civillian population as possible. State sponsored murder.
....and to those that might argue otherwise, punishing the whole for the fraction is wrong.
wSNPR

Offline Naso

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« Reply #129 on: June 19, 2002, 07:01:03 AM »
WOW!! :eek:

Just finished to read the ENTIRE thread!!

It took more than an hour (and a big translating effort).

The 2 Eurocent I want to add are (paraphrasing Toad ;) ):

If you dont want your thread become a "you are a nazi!" "we kicked your arse!" "It's black and white!" discussion, DONT START A THREAD!!!

:D :p ;)

P.S.

English are criminals, they like the Spitfire!!! :D

Offline Eaglecz

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« Reply #130 on: June 19, 2002, 07:22:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? :rolleyes:

The Germans were defeated....everyone new it

Weren't these the same Germans who had mounted a huge counter offensive only 8 weeks before?



yes it was .. so whats your point ?

Offline Eaglecz

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« Reply #131 on: June 19, 2002, 07:24:11 AM »
btw i didnt get whats that HELL about that WAR ?

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #132 on: June 19, 2002, 08:15:34 AM »
these threads didnt come up in aircraft forum you drug umm up when a few folks said they were tired of your rediculous drivel.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #133 on: June 19, 2002, 01:14:24 PM »
I disagree Wotan. These threads are directly related to the off-topic discussion that was developing and is continuing in the aircraft forum. I dug them up because I didn't feel there was any use in rehashing what had already been covered (which is being rehased regardless, what 3 pages now?).  Why reinvent the wheel every 4 months when the topic arises, particularly in an off-topic forum?

Charon

Offline 2Slow

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« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2002, 11:22:09 AM »
"They were doing their job at the time"

All too often I hear and have heard servicemen refer to "just doing my job."  Job?  How about Duty?  During my 20 years of service, I never thought I had a job.  I might have tasks that I executed under my duty.

Totaly off the subject, just a rant.
2Slow
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