Author Topic: Dresden  (Read 2972 times)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #75 on: March 07, 2002, 10:01:18 AM »
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Hortlund: Civilians are not, must not, and can not be valid targets of war


Wasn't it the basic premise of "Mutual Assured Destruction"  a nominally guaranteed elimination of an entire nation's civilian population?

Seems like post-WW2 the USSR and the US/Nato countries embraced a view of war that accepted and planned for this result.

Many ideals don't surivive the first encounter with war. "Civilians as non-valid targets" is an ideal that didn't even survive WWI actually.

"The Birth of Strategic Bombing

"There were 159 Zeppelin attacks against England in WWI, resulting in the death of 557 people, primarily civilians, and damages of $7,500,000."

The civilians weren't actually the targets?

Well, the "targeteers" knew civilians were going to die in "stategic raids" since the first raid ever flown. They sent the bombs anyway.

I'll suggest it makes no difference to the dead whether they were officially designated as targets or not.

Mutual Assured Destruction....... civilians aren't targets? The world came to grips with the reality of the situation a long time ago.

In the end, it's always the civilians that pay the highest price for their governments actions.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2002, 10:09:58 AM »
There is a difference between explicitly targeting civilians and targeting valid military targets and the attacks resulting in civilian casualties.

Do you want the legal aspect of it or the philosophical one?
 
wwi is not a good example, because no one after wwi wanted to enforce the laws of war. Nuremberg changed that after wwii.

MAD is someting that is so sick to its core that it is hard to grasp now. But just because the phenomenon existed does not make it justifiable in any way.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2002, 10:25:24 AM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund
MAD is someting that is so sick to its core that it is hard to grasp now. But just because the phenomenon existed does not make it justifiable in any way.


Oh, indeed. I agree wholeheartedly.

However, like wearing garlic around your neck to ward off vampires....... MAD apparently worked. (Don't see any vampires around here, do you? :) )

We're all still here despite recently going through 50 years of incredibly huge nuclear arsenals armed and ready to fire and the "high tension" political events of that same time period.

Was it MAD that kept the fingers off the triggers? Who will ever know for sure? But the fingers WERE kept off the triggers and MAD may well have been the doctrine responsible for that fact.

... and CLEARLY BOTH SIDES were targeting civilians and making no secret about it.

Or maybe it was just the dawning of the Age of Aquarius that saved us.

Idealize all you like. Civilians are always killed in war. Always have been, always will be.

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There is a difference between explicitly targeting civilians and targeting valid military targets and the attacks resulting in civilian casualties.
[/b]

Yeah, the difference is that you usually kill more if you explicitly target them. But you'll still kill some, even if non-targeted and using "smart" weapons.

As I said, specificity of targeting makes no difference to the dead; they're still dead.

So, is it OK to kill some civilians if you didn't mean too? But bad if you meant to?

How about this:

"Don't start nothing, won't BE nothing."

Sadly, Adolph, Benito and Hideki probably hadn't heard that one before they set out to conquer the world.

Man, just think how many civilians would have lived to old age if these three politicos had been able to control their egos. Hey, do you think these three figured some civilians were maybe going to die if they implemented their various schemes of conquest?

It's real easy to keep your civilians from being killed in a war. Don't start a war.

There ya go!  :)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2002, 10:29:13 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2002, 11:46:38 AM »
Toad...your post is awesome.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #79 on: March 07, 2002, 11:49:33 AM »
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Toad...your post is awesome.


Bah, you're just pissed at me becuase your stuck in the Ju88 for this tour. ;)

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #80 on: March 07, 2002, 01:54:36 PM »
You keep saying "Bring the criminals to justice, don't punish the innocent"

Who the shreck are you going to bring to justice? And who the shreck is punishing the innocent? As far as I can tell these "innocent" (Nazi supporters mind you) are long dead, their punishment, or lack thereof, was a bomb going off above their head or in their home killing them instantly.

Who exactly are the criminals you keep referring to? You can't even clarify that, you want someone to suffer for something that happened 60 years ago against a nation that was hell bent on exterminating anything that crossed their paths that wasn't of the "aryan race".

Hey Hortland, riddle me this, if air power doesn't win wars then why was Desert Storm 1 week long? Why is it that in any war where the one with dominant air superiority will always advance the furthest on the ground?

The bomber crews destroyed Germany's ability to manufacture more weapons, gas, oil, ball bearings and the list goes on. Maybe YOU are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

And yes, the color of the uniform does matter to me. Well atleast the little arm badge with the swastika. One side fought for the right cause, preventing Hitler's 3rd Reich from expanding the globe and the other one fought for Hitler's cause. When you are fighting a criminal army, I don't see how you can not commit crimes yourself.

You know just as well as I do that if Germany had won WWII, there would be no mention of war crimes.... because no one but Germans/Aryans would be left alive.

The / means and/or.

What difference does a declaration of war make? Pearl Harbor, if you can't understand that then I can't help you.

My point being about Germany destroying towns and cities, etc, as they advanced through most of Europe is that at those initial days of WWII is when Germany initiated the war crimes and never stopped.

The allied bomber crews did what they were told, if you are looking for criminals you'll find them in the higher ranks. But the lowly soldier does what's he's supposed to do- just keep soldiering on.
-SW

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2002, 02:15:44 PM »
there should be no doudt about it

Bomber "Civilian Killer" Harris is a war criminal.

He knowingly targeted civilians in order to cause as much terror as possible.

SHAEF conceded the attack on Dresden as such and so did Churchill. Harris's own words he used to justify area bombing , whichk the conditions he out lined were not the case in Dresden, prove his own guilt.

Theres no question to attack on Dresden specifically targeted civilians at a time when the Russians were 90 miles away.

Dresden as known before hand did nothing to end the war, or save any allied life, or stop any vital war production, or stop the movement of any German troops,  and it can be argued Harris's bloodlust actually put at risk more allies then the raid could ever hope to spare.

The brits have a history of targeting civilians from our own Revolutionary War to The Boar War.

There was a series made by 2 Canadian Brothers the Valour and Honor that sheds light on the tactic of area bombing.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2002, 02:27:26 PM »
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Hey Hortland, riddle me this, if air power doesn't win wars then why was Desert Storm 1 week long? Why is it that in any war where the one with dominant air superiority will always advance the furthest on the ground?

The bomber crews destroyed Germany's ability to manufacture more weapons, gas, oil, ball bearings and the list goes on. Maybe YOU are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.



First off air power alone didn't win Desert Storm. Secondly area bombing was used in Desert storm. Thirdly the ground targets attacked were Command Control Centers and military forces. They didnt fly b52s over Bagdad and targets theres site on residential areas.

Bomber Crews destroyed Germany's ability to make tools for war yes. But Harris was constantly opposed to having Bomber Command do anything but area bombing. He opposed diverting his forces during overlord when they were to hit railway yards. He opposed diverting his forces to hit oil targets, even when these very types of attacks were veruy successfull in shutting down german oil production.

Secondly it was the US daylight raids which specifically targeted the German War machine. Area Bombing and specifically the targeting of civilians in the Dresden raid did nothing to save lives or end the war.

Again reread the post from the guys at the time.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2002, 02:34:59 PM »
Adolph Hitler voluntarily offered up German civilians as targets for mass destruction when he ordered the Anschluss of Austria... but nothing happened that time.

Adolph Hitler voluntarily offered up German civilians as targets for mass destruction when he ordered the occupation of Czechoslovakia.... but nothing happened that time.

Adolph Hitler voluntarily offered up German civilians as targets for mass destruction when he ordered the attack on Poland.... Mars took Hitler up on his offer.  That was the time the fate of the German civilians was sealed.

Place the blame for the targeting of German civilians where it should lie, on the man who gave the orders to plunge Germany into world war.

Had it not been Poland, it would have been on June 22, 1941 when Operation Barbarossa jumped off. The same man gave the order for that, too. Place the blame where it should lie.

Hiroshima? The attack on Pearl Harbor came on the heels of the Japanese government's decision, under Premier Hideki Tojo that the United States would take an active role in the Pacific theater in the event that Japan attacked Southeast Asia.

Tojo and his government voluntarily offered up Japanese civilians as targets for mass destruction when they gave the order to attack Pearl. Mars took Tojo up on his offer.  

Place the blame for the targeting of Japanese civilians where it should lie, on the man who gave the orders to plunge Japan into world war.

None of those men were unaware of the nature of war. They were just incredibly overly optimistic with regards to their own capabilities. Their nations paid the price for that overoptimism.

Don't start nothing, won't BE nothing.







« Last Edit: March 07, 2002, 02:37:40 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Phantom4

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« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2002, 02:42:22 PM »
I am a little late to reading this "debate", but I'll throw my two cents in.

0. I am a pacifist, an ex-Marine, and a Viet Vet.

1. Sherman was wrong, War is not hell ... It is evil and vile.

2. There are NO good wars.  All wars are bad.

3. The bombing of London was wrong, the bombing of Dresden was wrong, the bombing of Tokyo was wrong, the bombing of Hiroshima was wrong, the bombing of Nagasaki was wrong .....

4. No one any any war, anywhere, at anytime was "right".

5. Justifation is just that - Justifaction.

6. Trying to make rules for war, to somehow make them cleaner or more acceptable is rediculous.  Chivalrous war is a myth.

7. No sane person believes it is okay to kill innocent people.

8. No warrior is ever the same for the experience.

9. Many (if not most) bomber crews, grunts, soldiers of every type on all sides lived sad and broken lives as the result of their experiences.

10. When it comes to war there are no winners, it is a zero sum game. All lose.

The ghosts of all I have killed live with me everyday and I shall always bear the shame that we could not have come up with a better solution.

Edit - added for completeness least someone think I am hiding behind my handle.

SSgt Melvin D. Hendrick
USMC #2493009

ps - I think JAB and Toad had the best points.
That is my opinion - your mileage may vary.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2002, 03:23:06 PM by Phantom4 »

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2002, 02:50:00 PM »
Stating that theres nothing wrong with "getting a little payback" is different then saying that the attack on Dresden was of some military value. Or that it accomplished anything beyond causing terror.

Regardless of German Aggression England and France started the war supposedly to stop it then sat on their hands and gave hitler time to plan for the invasion of France. Had they done so from the git go there would have been no war. And had they been ready to invade Germany soon after Germany invaded Poland there would be no need to Kill civilians in 1945. Or they could have conceded poland and waited for the inevitable Soviet German war.

This ofcourse is hindsight but still relevant especially when you use the excuse of German Aggression as an excuse to kill civilians.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2002, 03:30:50 PM »
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Regardless of German Aggression England and France started the war supposedly to stop it then sat on their hands and gave hitler time to plan for the invasion of France.


England and France started the war? Yikes! All of my history books are wrong!!
So if German aggression was ignored by England and France we could have saved all those civilians in Dresden?
Or...if the English expeditionary force had "done its job" instead of leaving via Dunkirk then Dresden would be safe? Paaleeezzee!
Or..we could have left the fate of the world in the hands of Hitler and Stalin....yea! that's the ticket!

Toad's post is brilliant in its simplicity. Well done sir.

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2002, 03:40:07 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target


England and France started the war? Yikes! All of my history books are wrong!!
So if German aggression was ignored by England and France we could have saved all those civilians in Dresden?
Or...if the English expeditionary force had "done its job" instead of leaving via Dunkirk then Dresden would be safe? Paaleeezzee!
Or..we could have left the fate of the world in the hands of Hitler and Stalin....yea! that's the ticket!


Heh heh.  It's the old "Stop me before I kill again" line.

- Oldman

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2002, 04:08:46 PM »
You're off your head Wotan. You have to be.

The brits have a history of targeting civilians from our own Revolutionary War to The Boar War.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????

So it's some inherent character trait now? Mass-murder is a cornerstone of the British character?!

An imbecilic attitute and one which is disproven after a cursory examination of human conflict through the ages.

Of course the Germans are a peaceful and harmless nation, who are incapable of malice. Salute to that great race! That innocent people! Hail their unparalleled humanity!

Perhaps mistakes were made by the Allies during the war. But the scale of those mistakes pales into insignificance in comparison to the pure, unadulterated evil perpetrated by GERMANS, in a war started by GERMANS and lost by GERMANS.

And the truly laughable aspect of your stance on this subject is the continued insistance that the firebombing of Japanese cities (killing 100,000 a night in some raids) was somehow morally justified whereas RAF raids were indefensible. You also neglect to mention the fact that Nagasaki was effectively chosen based on the fact it had not been attacked previously and would be a good test-bed for an atomic strike. It could be argued Nagasaki was the US Dresden and that it had no strategic value.

And what's that crap about US Japanese bombings being carried out by a small number of people? Not only is it untrue but it's completely irrelevant.

I'm out of this discussion. It's clear this board attracts a certain kind of person, easily deluded into believing the Germans were fighting a morally defensible war, the combatants of which should be held as heroes and quoted as such.

They weren't heroes. They were fools - swept along by nationalistic fervour and jingoism at best, consumed by pure hatred at worst.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2002, 04:18:41 PM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2002, 04:40:12 PM »
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So it's some inherent character trait now? Mass-murder is a cornerstone of the British character?!


Isn'it this the same arguement thats made about any german that happened to exist during the Nazi years?

The Nazi's paid for what they did. You could argue they even deserve more. However, Dresden wasn't to punish Nazi's but to kill and cause terror to civilians at a time when the war was basically won.

I made no excuse for Nazi terror but you are all to willing to excuse British terror and then justify it by comparing it as a justified response to Nazi terror.

Both are equally wrong.

I referred you to Harris' quote for the justification of use for area bombing. Like I said others in this thread make that arguement to justify Dresden, however the facts surrounding Dresden dont support that.

However I actually agree with Harris on that point. The facts around Nagasaki and Hiroshima are all with in those bounds. Nagasaki and Hiroshima ended the War and prevented the US from having to invade, saving lives. Even the firebombing in tokyo as wrong as it was, was a far cry different then what happened in Dresden. Japan wasnt defeated and still capable to fight back.

Britain never planned to invade Dresden and they knew it wouldn't end the war and they knew there were no troops moving through Dresden and the knew theres was no real war industry.

My mother has dual us/brit citizenship. My Grandmother lived in conventry during the war but that doesn't change what happened in Dresden or to the Boar civilians or anything else for that matter.

for the record I dont believe in any form of "collective guilt".