Author Topic: The future GV introductions in AH?......  (Read 968 times)

Offline hazed-

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The future GV introductions in AH?......
« on: March 06, 2002, 09:56:38 AM »
The one area that the axis forces really dominated in world war 2, in the west at least, for superior design was in Jets and armour, late war mainly!, earlier blitkreig armour could be argued as inferior but with better tactics that were employed.Both jets and tanks fortunately, were not produced in enough numbers to stop the allies but it is an accepted fact that the German heavy tanks were the toughest and possibly the deadliest.


Now in aces high for the first year and a half(?) the allied planeset really dominated the skies of AH for european theatre types at least(nik became a real pain!).As a fan of LW planes I like others who chose to fly them were frustrated by the superior speeds of types like the p51d and the turning capabilities of other allied types like the spitfire.In ground attack we had for a LONG time no real capability at all! (remember when and for how long the 190a8 was all we had? :)).In the bomber catagory we had an even worse time until we had the ju88 to toy with.(I say toy with because it suffers from being the only bomber that is pre 1943-45).I really love the diversity the ju88 offers,and persist with its use because of this alone, even when i know 9 times out of 10 a determined attack will easily leave you dead.
We were lucky in only one area, the ground vehicles!.We had the only tank and the deadly ostwind(imo a vehicle that has spoiled somewhat the balance of choice in AA defence). The M16 was an excellent choice as an AA platform in that it is vulnerable without that instant kill capability.If you was a good shot and possess some skill you can get kills, but at the same time a more carefull pilot could kill you with a skilfull bomb or rocket attack and when hit by an M16 this type of pilot had a chance to react and escape harm.Not so with ostwinds(or AI ack for this matter!).I think a lot of the frustration in AH is that when hit by ai AA/ostwinds there isnt a lot you can do about it.This led to a lot of people ignoring the excellent ground attack side to flying.If when hit you get a chance to break off you are more likely to try again and use some skill and possibly we'd avoid this suicide dive mentality.Where they know they are going to lose a wing first hit so they dive in drop everything and hope it hits close (who can blame them when ai AA or ostwind AA is so deadly?)
Back to tanks, on average it took TEN shermans to kill a tiger.(recalled from memory 99% sure this was the statistic).The method employed was often to send so many shermans and other types into the battles that these heavy and dangerous tanks were simply overrun by the amount of allied tanks or were destroyed by air attacks when the allies really took a hold on the air.I think HTC should recognise that a lot of their customers are fans of books on history about this 'deadly image' of the axis.In AH there isnt many occations (not before the jets anyway) where you thought the axis had much of an advantage.However, we always had our Gvs but unfortunately not a lot we could match them against.Tank battles were just the same type vs type and did little to help us understand why the panzer was rated so highly.
I was thinking that HTC should Avoid bringing the very much later allied tanks I have seen requested in AH like the pershing or firefly version of the shermans in favour of the earlier types that had such a hard time against the better designs The Germans fielded.A simple sherman M4 would imo be a fantastic first tank addition to AH.(not only that but this is the icon of the allies for me personally from kellys heroes to the battle of the bulge this is the tank we often see and think of for WW2)
What Im asking for is for HTC to keep the Ground war an area where if you choose to be allied you will face a deadly enemy.In MA this will not be a problem in terms of ballance because, after all, you can take the same tank if you find it too difficult to attack a base etc.But for scenarios etc it is possible to field greater numbers of inferior tanks vs smaller numbers of the superior tiger/panther/panzer types.Learning decent tactics instead of slogging it out with longer and longer ranged guns will become the norm.Using cover or speed or numbers to overpower the small but deadly enemy could be a lot of fun imo.We might even see a few great tank commanders emerging!! :D
What i would really hate to see is an Allied tank from the very end of the war that greatly outperforms the panzerIVH or any other axis tank we might get for a while.What i mean is this:
If we introduce a pershing with a bigger gun the Panzer IV will be outclassed, the favoued tank would be the allied pershing and the panzer driver or fan would be frustrated and we would be back to pershing to pershing slug fests, only now at greater ranges.If however the sherman M4/or similar allied early tank like the matilda, was introduced most if not all will 'try it out' because we all like them, we might find the panzer a tricky foe and some good fights should emerge with a differing setup and capabilities/weaknesses.
I think personally that as AH has a heavily late war orientated plane set it would be a good idea to keep 'axis types' happy with the better types of ground vehicles.By all means perk them to reflect their rarity etc but keep them cutting edge.
If we get were to get the tiger or panther or kingtiger or jaggpanther etc, then by all means , introduce much later allied designs  but please dont introduce an allied tank that suddenly leaves axis fans cold.I for one want to feel the difference by introducing models as they arrived into the front line, and this means Germany pretty much leading the way most of the time(russian front not included here of course, I have often read of the T34's superior design for the russian terrain and that would also be interesting to 'feel')

Anyway this has gone on a bit long , but i hope you understand what i mean here.Im ok with the airside of AH leaning towards the allies a bit but in the gound war I really feel it would be better for aH to keep it how it was on the front in europe.deadly but rare heavy german tanks taking on large numbers of inferior allies tanks interspersed with a few better versions but exacting high costs.And trying to convey that vulnerable feeling the allied tank veterans often talk about.Those Allied veterans often admired the vehicles of their enemies and openly admitted to wishing they had similar ones.Much as many german crews envied the mobility and good design of the Russians T34.

ok request over :D
« Last Edit: March 06, 2002, 10:44:21 AM by hazed- »

Offline K West

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2002, 10:06:21 AM »
Look at that Wall O'text...yikes!!  ;)  

 I'm hoping that gv's (naval ships/boats as well) get an increase in thier complexity- re: driving as well as ballistics and damage model aspects. They may be "side dishes" or brief alternatives to the AH air war but as a player I see no reason they could not be made more realistic whihc IMO would make them more fun.  As they are now they're even easier to use than fluffs but with some real odd damage models.
 A key element to revising any ground aspect, imo, would be also bring a new complex uber-terrain such as ...er, that "other place" whose 'war' is stuck in 1940 has.  A terrain where most every aspect is fixed and the same on every FE.  However that may cause too big of an FPS hit.
 After you provide the proper environment to use these ground vehicles in then IMO you cold really discuss what you would like HTC to do as regards adding specific vehicles and sets.

  Westy
« Last Edit: March 06, 2002, 10:48:01 AM by K West »

Offline hazed-

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2002, 10:19:59 AM »
K west I avoided talking about the damage model because I feel at the moment HTC is obviously watching and testing it carefully as the game evolves.This was purely a request for armoured vehicles, although its good point to mention the allied superiority in sea based craft and landing craft.However the allies were really the only side to field such vehicles and it is definately an area where it helped to win the war.

By all means discuss the game 'affect' of sea based vehicles and ships, you feel would benefit AH but lets leave durability and damage modelling and the terrain out of it for a bit please :).This is aimed at seeing who agrees or disagrees and i dont want some off topic arguement starting.

What I express here is what i want or would like to see in AH not what Im demanding or argueing is broken.
If people feel thisshould be ignored then fair enough post here and say you dont agree and why.Dont argue about certain dates of design and introduction etc please.We are not all exact historians.Many just have an overall veiw of the war and how it played out and many times we argue over the strangest of mute points like how many were made or where they were deployed etc. We lose track of what we are here for and that is enjoyment with entertainment with a little information and complexity thrown in.

True the terrain isnt exactly suited to gvs but this can be addressed much later and for now i really enjoy the gv side too but would like to see a similar allied/axis choice of vehicles(with ref to huge first post :)) and then worry about how the terrain needs upgrading later:)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2002, 10:27:30 AM by hazed- »

Offline akak

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Re: The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2002, 10:30:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
...but it is an accepted fact that the German heavy tanks were the toughest and possibly the deadliest.



The Soviet T-34 I believe had that distinction.




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Offline whels

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Re: The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2002, 10:36:22 AM »


well when the sherman is brought in and modeled CORRECTLY,
i wont use it. if modeled correctly it wont be able to kill
a Panz 1 on 1, and will die easier then a M8.

whels

Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
The one area that the axis forces really dominated in world war 2, in the west at least, for superior design was in Jets and armour, late war mainly!, earlier blitkreig armour could be argued as inferior but with better tactics that were employed.Both jets and tanks fortunately, were not produced in enough numbers to stop the allies but it is an accepted fact that the German heavy tanks were the toughest and possibly the deadliest.


Now in aces high for the first year and a half(?) the allied planeset really dominated the skies of AH for european theatre types at least(nik became a real pain!).As a fan of LW planes I like others who chose to fly them were frustrated by the superior speeds of types like the p51d and the turning capabilities of other allied types like the spitfire.In ground attack we had for a LONG time no real capability at all! (remember when and for how long the 190a8 was all we had? :)).In the bomber catagory we had an even worse time until we had the ju88 to toy with.(I say toy with because it suffers from being the only bomber that is pre 1943-45).I really love the diversity the ju88 offers,and persist with its use because of this alone, even when i know 9 times out of 10 a determined attack will easily leave you dead.
We were lucky in only one area, the ground vehicles!.We had the only tank and the deadly ostwind(imo a vehicle that has spoiled somewhat the balance of choice in AA defence). The M16 was an excellent choice as an AA platform in that it is vulnerable without that instant kill capability.If you was a good shot and possess some skill you can get kills, but at the same time a more carefull pilot could kill you with a skilfull bomb or rocket attack and when hit by an M16 this type of pilot had a chance to react and escape harm.Not so with ostwinds(or AI ack for this matter!).I think a lot of the frustration in AH is that when hit by ai AA/ostwinds there isnt a lot you can do about it.This led to a lot of people ignoring the excellent ground attack side to flying.If when hit you get a chance to break off you are more likely to try again and use some skill and possibly we'd avoid this suicide dive mentality.Where they know they are going to lose a wing first hit so they dive in drop everything and hope it hits close (who can blame them when ai AA or ostwind AA is so deadly?)
Back to tanks, on average it took TEN shermans to kill a tiger.(recalled from memory 99% sure this was the statistic).The method employed was often to send so many shermans and other types into the battles that these heavy and dangerous tanks were simply overrun by the amount of allied tanks or were destroyed by air attacks when the allies really took a hold on the air.I think HTC should recognise that a lot of their customers are fans of books on history about this 'deadly image' of the axis.In AH there isnt many occations (not before the jets anyway) where you thought the axis had much of an advantage.However, we always had our Gvs but unfortunately not a lot we could match them against.Tank battles were just the same type vs type and did little to help us understand why the panzer was rated so highly.
I was thinking that HTC should Avoid bringing the very much later allied tanks I have seen requested in AH like the pershing or firefly version of the shermans in favour of the earlier types that had such a hard time against the better designs The Germans fielded.A simple sherman M4 would imo be a fantastic first tank addition to AH.(not only that but this is the icon of the allies for me personally from kellys heroes to the battle of the bulge this is the tank we often see and think of for WW2)
What Im asking for is for HTC to keep the Ground war an area where if you choose to be allied you will face a deadly enemy.In MA this will not be a problem in terms of ballance because, after all, you can take the same tank if you find it too difficult to attack a base etc.But for scenarios etc it is possible to field greater numbers of inferior tanks vs smaller numbers of the superior tiger/panther/panzer types.Learning decent tactics instead of slogging it out with longer and longer ranged guns will become the norm.Using cover or speed or numbers to overpower the small but deadly enemy could be a lot of fun imo.We might even see a few great tank commanders emerging!! :D
What i would really hate to see is an Allied tank from the very end of the war that greatly outperforms the panzerIVH or any other axis tank we might get for a while.What i mean is this:
If we introduce a pershing with a bigger gun the Panzer IV will be outclassed, the favoued tank would be the allied pershing and the panzer driver or fan would be frustrated and we would be back to pershing to pershing slug fests, only now at greater ranges.If however the sherman M4/or similar allied early tank like the matilda, was introduced most if not all will 'try it out' because we all like them, we might find the panzer a tricky foe and some good fights should emerge with a differing setup and capabilities/weaknesses.
I think personally that as AH has a heavily late war orientated plane set it would be a good idea to keep 'axis types' happy with the better types of ground vehicles.By all means perk them to reflect their rarity etc but keep them cutting edge.
If we get were to get the tiger or panther or kingtiger or jaggpanther etc, then by all means , introduce much later allied designs  but please dont introduce an allied tank that suddenly leaves axis fans cold.I for one want to feel the difference by introducing models as they arrived into the front line, and this means Germany pretty much leading the way most of the time(russian front not included here of course, I have often read of the T34's superior design for the russian terrain and that would also be interesting to 'feel')

Anyway this has gone on a bit long , but i hope you understand what i mean here.Im ok with the airside of AH leaning towards the allies a bit but in the gound war I really feel it would be better for aH to keep it how it was on the front in europe.deadly but rare heavy german tanks taking on large numbers of inferior allies tanks interspersed with a few better versions but exacting high costs.And trying to convey that vulnerable feeling the allied tank veterans often talk about.Those Allied veterans often admired the vehicles of their enemies and openly admitted to wishing they had similar ones.Much as many german crews envied the mobility and good design of the Russians T34.

ok request over :D

Offline hazed-

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2002, 10:43:18 AM »
And so it begins :(

dont know why i bothered.AKAK im aware of the russian tanks and already mentioned it.Id argue the germans had the dealier guns fielded longer than any other army.The 88cm was wel recognised as among the best of the war.This added to a body like the jagdpanther and i would garentee no t34 would beat it in a 1 on 1 situation over clear ground.Much as we would see in AH.So lets keep AH in mind here. Anyway the T34 was on the eastern front only and as 90% of the planeset and gv set is europe(west/south)/north africa or pacific orientated I thought id leave it for later discussions once we have more Russian models

whels how about not quoting the entire thread out ?? we can all read it at the top.True the sherman was weak but thats the whole point! if you use them you SHOULD feel weak.Its gun SHOULD feel a lot more usefull than the m8 we have(37mm?) which agin is down to modeling.
Whels consider this: The damage model is indeed bugged somehow but it can be adjusted.I feel HE/AP damage etc is off but i still use them.This is really about the future introductions more than anything.I personally do not want the current problems to stop introductions to the GV set. I want to see shermans, panzers,panthers,matildas, t34s,etc etc etc. we can tweak the models later.  
« Last Edit: March 06, 2002, 11:02:52 AM by hazed- »

Offline Seeker

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2002, 11:03:41 AM »
"Panzer" and "blitzkrieg" were definatly two of the most significant concepts of WWII.

T34 was definatly one of the most significant tanks; and really should be one of the very next GV's modelled.

In the same way that the Spit and Hurri first shattered the invincible image of the Luftwaffe, Which Allied tanks first pushed back the Panzers?

At which point would we have a balanced field? North Africa? Kursk?


I know nothing of the armoured conflict in the PTO, any one got any links?

Offline MadBirdCZ

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2002, 11:22:56 AM »
**ERROR! Text too long!
Text lenght exceeds brain capacity - Aborting

:rolleyes:

But in general - I agree...

Offline Tilt

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Re: The future GV introductions in AH?......
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2002, 11:22:59 AM »
Bring on Stalins organ pipes      the Katyusha heavy rocket launcher........ driven in convoy as per  future buff modes....... range finding etc modeled on the big ship guns but with accuracy randomiser as per future (I hope) buffs................



That might add a bit of varietyto the GV choice set......... the GV equivilent of a heavy bomber (destruction wise not strat wise)


http://www.swebase.com/wintersturm/html/katjusja.html


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Offline Fariz

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Re: The future GV introductions in AH?......
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2002, 11:29:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
but it is an accepted fact that the German heavy tanks were the toughest and possibly the deadliest.
 


At west yes, at east IS-2 was 3 heards ahead of tigers and even kingtigers. It is well known that germans prohibitied their tankers to get into duels with IS-2.

Fariz

Offline Sikboy

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2002, 11:41:14 AM »
While I don't support the establishment of an arena for the sole purpose of demonstrating German military hegemeny, I do support increased utility of GVs (eg: investigating the interation between aircraft and GVs during combat) and increasing the vehicle set.

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Offline illo

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2002, 11:56:45 AM »
Quote
well when the sherman is brought in and modeled CORRECTLY,
i wont use it. if modeled correctly it wont be able to kill
a Panz 1 on 1, and will die easier then a M8.

Sherman can kill PzKpfw-IVh frontally up to 1000m at least.


Quote
At west yes, at east IS-2 was 3 heards ahead of tigers and even kingtigers. It is well known that germans prohibitied their tankers to get into duels with IS-2.

Not quite true. IS-2 wast too hard target for even finnish Stugs. It had very slow rate of fire and very limited ammoload. Often under 10 AP rounds. Also IS-2 had much inferior optics to ones of Königstiger.

IS-2 and IS-3 look good on paper yes. But in actual combat T-34/85 and SU-100 would be much more effective against enemy armor.

There is general difference  in design of german and soviet armor. Soviets went for larger caliber as germans went for higher muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity is decicive for accuracy and penetration, but higher caliber guns (85mm, 122mm) on soviet tanks were better against infantry. These two countries made thair tanks with different desing goals and purposes. In
Armor vs Armor post 1943 german tanks were best until end of war.

Quote
T34 was definatly one of the most significant tanks; and really should be one of the very next GV's modelled.

In the same way that the Spit and Hurri first shattered the invincible image of the Luftwaffe, Which Allied tanks first pushed back the Panzers?
T-34 never pushed back panzers.

t was clearly worlds best tank design in 1941. With introduction of PzKpfw-IVf2 in 1942 with 75mmL43 it's rule was over. Anyway T-34 was very succesful design. And very innovative. Germans copied best of it in their panther. Used mostly against infantry t-34 broke terror in german forces. There is again this difference in doctrinal use. Soviet tanks against infantry and in breakthoughs, german tanks against armor.

t-34 was most inluential tank in ww2. It had largest effect in income of war. But that doesnt mean it could fight equally against Panthers or Tigers.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2002, 12:46:41 PM by illo »

Offline Fariz

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Re: Re: The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2002, 12:08:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by whels


well when the sherman is brought in and modeled CORRECTLY,
i wont use it. if modeled correctly it wont be able to kill
a Panz 1 on 1, and will die easier then a M8.

whels

 


Whels, which sherman? M4A2 was terrible, no doubt. But some modifications of M4A3 (76 (W) or "FireFly) can hold its own against TIV we have in the game. Actually they are same league. TIV is not a Panther, it is prewar tank with many improvments, far from beeing great.

Actually if (as HTC mentioned) we will get sherman and t34/85 in game in 1.10, t34 will be the dominent from all 3. It has better armor, faster, and better gun. Less ammo though, which in case of AH may be important

For your info I will put some date about all 3:

Weight:
TIVH -- 25.9
T34/85 -- 32
M4A3(76)W -- 33.7

Front Armor (chassy/tower)
TIVH -- 80/80
T34/85 -- 45/90
M4A3(76)W -- 108/64

Gun:
TIVH -- 75
T34/85 -- 85
M4A3(76)W -- 76

Rounds:
TIVH -- 80
T34/85 -- 55
M4A3(76)W -- 71

Armor penetration at 1000m:
TIVH -- 82
T34/85 -- 102
M4A3(76)W -- 88

Speed (at the road)
TIVH -- 38 km/h
T34/85 -- 55 km/h
M4A3(76)W -- 40

So nothing to afraid, those 3 are same league. I am sure that HTC will chose M4A3(76)W, and in this case people will chose tank basing on the task and their personal favours.

Offline Fariz

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2002, 12:24:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by illo

IS-2 and IS-3 look good on paper yes. But in actual combat T-34/85 and SU-100 would be much more effective against enemy armor.

There is general princiference in design of german and soviet armor. Soviets went for larger caliber as germans went for higher muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity is decicive for accuracy and penetration, but higher caliber guns (85mm, 122mm) on soviet tanks were better against infantry. These two countries made thair tanks with different desing goals and purposes. In
Armor vs Armor post 1943 german tanks were best until end of war.
 


First of all IS-3 did not saw action against Germans, so we can't compare. Only in one source I saw information that it was 1 fight between IS-2 and JagdPanzers (sp?). Other sources say some IS-3 were used in China in 1945, not any in Germany. Second, yes, IS-2 main disadvantages was slow speed of fire and load (that was main reason why IS-3 was put into production).  But again, it could kill german panzers outside the effective range of their guns. We can argue or not, but lets rely on Germans, which, again, prohibited open fight of tigers and panzers with IS-2. They never did it for t34/85 or su100 (or even su152). And they saw it on the field, not on paper :)

Fariz

Offline illo

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The future of the GVs in AH?......
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2002, 12:33:01 PM »
here something to show edge of better optics, muzzle velocity and higher ROF.

"Some Nashorn crews reported that they were able to knock out Soviet T-34 tanks at distance as great as 4000 meters. Nashorn crews also reported numerous kills of KV and IS-2 tanks as well as SU-152, ISU-122 and ISU-152 assault guns.  It is reported that in early March of 1945, Lieutenant Beckmann from sPzJagAbt 88 destroyed Soviet IS-2 at the range of 4600 meters near Marzdorf." Source, Achtung Panzer.

Soviet tanks of time couldnt even dream of hitting anything at 4000m range.

Here something more about IS-2, and choice to use 122mm gun. Design issues of IS-2 heavy tank


IS-2

Panther G with IR searchlight
« Last Edit: March 06, 2002, 12:51:50 PM by illo »