The future GV introductions in AH?......

[illo]

As above 88L71 gun of Jagdpanther, Nashorn, Königstiger could all knock out IL-2s at medium[edit, not extreme] ranges. Il-2s 122mm wasnt able to kill Jagdpanther or Königstiger frontally at over 1000m range.

I think T-34/85, Sherman 76 and PZkpfw-IVh are good choices. They all can knock out eachother with quite equal changes. Where 85L53 of T-34 is mariginally better in penetration it is worse accuracy wise than german 75L48 or US 76L51.

[SKurj]

GV's need more cover first IMO +)


SKurj

[popeye]

"GV's need more cover first"

Yes.  I'd like to see something along these lines:

No (enemy) icon for a GV that has been stopped for X minutes, and is "camouflaged".

No (enemy) icon for a GV that is in a "forest" (terrain with big trees).

(Might need to add muzzle flashes to make the above ideas viable.)

[SKurj]

errm popeye

I was referring to GV vs GV cover(where no icons exist).  Right now at least on ndisles you face your opponent over a vast area of pool table like ground.  

Hull down position... whats that??  If you can get into a position like that you have to climb a hill for 5 minutes or more... and even then odds are you will not only be facing up/down hill, but also leaning to one side making aim even tougher...

Need abit more terrain variety

Perhaps this can be scheduled for 1.15 after the planeset is filled out +)
(sooner would be nice)

SKurj
btw Anyone pick up The Panzer Elite rerelease? +)

[funkedup]

Yeah the Ostwind is undermodelled.  Anti-LW conspiracy for sure.

[Badger]

Originally posted by SKurj
GV's need more cover first IMO +)
SKurj

100% correct.

Current terrain continues to be more akin to the desert.  If one is attempting to truly simulate a European ground war, then it should be stated once again that the mean engagement range for Allied tanks vs German tanks was approximately 700 yards.  The 1st Army mean range was 760 yds, the 3rd Army mean range was 615 yds and the British 2nd Army mean range was 644 yds.  87% of all engagements resulting in casualties were at more than 200 yds, 65% was greater than 400 yds. However, only 2% were at ranges greater than 2000 yds.  It should also be that the range at which most encounters took place was 330 yds - or half the average range and most hits were on the front of the hull or turret for US Vehicles, but only for little more than 1/3 of the British tanks was this true.

1.  Four of the five engagements between single tanks went to the tank that fired first.

2. One half of all casualties were caused by a single hit and the average number of hits per casualty was less than two.

3. German weapons could penetrate Allied armor, in most cases, out to 2000 yds, whereas Allied guns could perforate German armor only out to about 800 yds.

For Northern Europe, the average range that a tank could see another tank from any random point was 322 yards. The probability that a tank could see 1000 yards at any random point in Northern Europe was less than .05 (less than 5%).

Tank engagements in Europe were controlled by the terrain - thus limiting tank engagement ranges.

You'll need a proper terrain environment before anyone should be worrying about highly realistic modeling of ground vehicles or weaponry.  Until then, the GV component of AH will always be more of a fun arcade adventure designed to support the essence of the flight simulation game, which IMHO it should always be.

Regards,
Badger

[hazed-]

AND BACK TO THE REASON/TOPIC OF POST.........


Are we going to introduce allied amour that far outclasses axis or are we going to get the bigger axis armour as we get the better allied models like M4(76) or T34?

Id love to see the t34 and sherman firefly/pershing etc but LIKE I SAID IN POST I think the tank king should always focus more on the German armour.Just make them COST perks to use to reflect their lower numbers.

after all the me262 and arado seem to do their jobs perfectly. LW fans have their 'secret weapons of the LW' to toy with but they are costly and so cannot overun the arena.This is after all very similar to WW2 in that they ARE rare but THEY ARE there!!
In the GV world there should always be that DEADLY rare TANK possibly with the 88cm gun before we see the 76mm+larger guns the allies eventually fielded.I really wouldnt want the panzer to suddenly become the worst tank in AH and leave the axis players out in the cold before we have even had a chance to see what the panzerIV was like vs tanks it most commonly fought instead of itself like now.(t34 is an exception here i agree,it was used in 1941 against german armour but i think american or british tanks are more in line with our current model set)

I absolutely agree the ground war is much more a FUN addition than it is a serious attempt at highly detailed simulation and I also think that is pretty much where gvs should stay.AH is after all a flight sim with extras much more than it is the total war sim.(although a fun and good attempt at it)

Please open another thread for technical layouts etc and stick to this issue? do you agree or disagree.I think the GV part of AH should try to reflect battles with the advanced German armour before they model the advanced allied tanks.I dont want to see the panzer become obsolete before its even faced its oppersite number.Introduce pershings or t34s for that matter and without the mobile 88cm AA guns(cant remember name) or advanced German armour the ballance shifts TOTALLy to the allies.They will have the best anti-tank aircraft with the best tanks and best bombers.I think that willl be the day i give up playing AH through sheer frustration and lack of fun flying/driving the machines i choose to use . And before you condemn me for choosing to be on an axis side remember you need axis players as much as any other, some people enjoy playing the bad guys in games.(think star wars and my favourite ships were the tie fighters!! go figure, does that make me a dark jedi? lol no I just liked the 'look' and their relentless image).We need both allied and axis aircraft/vehicle fans in here unless we want boring one sided fights.

[GRUNHERZ]

Fariz

"Second, yes, IS-2 main disadvantages was slow speed of fire and load (that was main reason why IS-3 was put into production)."

Nope!

The IS3 had an even worse reaload speed than the IS2, the turret of the IS3 was much more cramped than the IS2.

Also, the IS3 had terrible vision outside the tank. It had no commanders vision cupola. It only gave him a single rotating scope on his hatch. I can't belive they did this as it was the one of the greatest faults with early T34s and KV1 excepct the KV1S.

As  for the Soviet 122mm gun.

It only had the AP performance of the Panthers 75mm, but with much lower rate of fire, and much lower accuracy. It had vastly superior HE power against soft targets. But it only had 28 total rounds as ammo load vs Panthers 80-90.

The IS2 was not designed to fight tanks! It's purpose was as a breakthrough tank against entrenced infantry and pak lines.


IS2 wasnt that great, although it had thick armor and an excellent shilouette. It was aloso extremly sluggish compared to Panther- even though they weighed about the same.

[SKurj]

Hazed, may as well paint those fancy shmancy tanks pink when your fighting in the current terrain.

The only skill involved is who can get the range first.  This isn't how it was...  stealth was a HUGE part of it.

If all you want are the monster tanks perhaps thats fine for you..

Allied tanks need the cover +)



SKurj

[eddiek]

He upfront admitted wanting to see the Axis (as if it matters in the MA who made a vehicle, everyone can use them) get a huge edge in the armor area of operation.
Doesn't really matter to me.  I rarely use GV's, they are more of a nuisance to me than fluffs are to Lazs.  
I think we need to see some Allied tanks before we EVER see a Tiger or Panther, if for no other reason than for "balance" in the GV set.
Not to be confrontational, hazed, but I do disagree with your comments about the air side of AH favoring the Allies, especially prior to the 262 and Arado.  Not gonna hijack your thread, you can email me or PM me if you want to debate our differences in opinion.
Overall, not a bad post, Hazed.  You presented your case well, even got the idea for complete German armor domination over in such a way no one has replied "F**k you Hazed!"  

[gavor]

Originally posted by Seeker


At which point would we have a balanced field? North Africa? Kursk?


I know nothing of the armoured conflict in the PTO, any one got any links?

Look up 'el alamein' for info on the turning of the war in the desert. This link is a good start.

alamein

[illo]

Thanks grünherz! You said everything I wanted to say.

I think aircraft cannon/MG penetration against tanks should be made realistic. Now tanks are way too vulnerable because unrealistic damage model and no where to hide. Need thicker woods and roads. Icons for GVs don't work. In far future it would be great to get enough variation in ground to find hull down positions.

Some indrect arty like Hummel, Nebelwerfer/Wurfrahmen, Katyushka or Calliope would be cool for pounding airfields. Then only need Fieseler Storch for spotter AC.

I dream of seeing Kursk scenario. NO icons. 190s flying cover for advancing Pzkw-IVs. T-34s stalking their prey in woodline. First panzers lit up. Muzzle flashes and smoke reveal t-34s. Stukas diving to drop their bombs in woodline. La5s trying to get them...109s diving to help ju87s.   Il-2s at treetop level trying to sneak past 190s to kill panzers.

Would this be possible in future??? What do you think?

[Seeker]

Thanks, Gavnor; I'll read it through.

But before I do....

I was under the impression that supply line length (aided by the Desert Rats) was what really beat Rommel. The tanks in use in the desert I've always considered qualitiatvely inferior to the Panzers, is this incorrect?

[Saintaw]

I was wondering why I didn't see you online last night... now I know, you were here wrtiting a book

[Staga]

Russian 122mm was having nice punch: even if it didn't penetrate armour explosion could throw whole turret away.
(I've been reading about this issue 'cause wwiiol )

Some numbers for German 37mm, 50mm, 75mm and 88mm:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/wwiiol/penetr_tables.htm