Petition to change the name of the Hien on AH

[FDutchmn]

Gentlemen (Ladies too),

This is a petition to change the name of the Hein to that of a more appropriate nomenclature.  To brief you on the background of this issue, please refer to the following:

1. News (Prior to 1.07 release)
2. What is the Ki-61-I-KAIc (in Aircraft and Vehicles)

The issue that is being brought forward is that the name Ki-61-I-KAIc used in AH does not seem to exist.  My belief is that translations from Japanese was not done or understood correctly before which led to a nomenclature which was not existent or used in Japan.

I do find documentation referring to the Ki-61-I-KAIc as a subtype for the Hein, for example at Aircraft of the World by Mr. J. Baugher.  (By the way, this post is not to criticize Mr. Baugher's work in any way.)

Here, the nomenclature uses a, b, c, d, etc as a subtype of the Hein, referring to the Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei, etc.  However, this translation of the subtypes is what is actually contributing to the confusion.  The "c" on the Ki-61-I-KAIc would suggest that the one we have on AH is a Hei model [the third subtype.]  

The following is an example of documentation we can find in Japan on the Hein:

Source: ISBN4-7698-0911-5
Title: Type 3 Fighter Hein and Type 5 Fighter - Each Model, Combat Records, Paintings and Markings (Pages 120 - )
Author: Mr. Minoru Akimoto, an aviation researcher


Here is an excerpt on the Ki-61-I-Hei:

Translation by me...
"Wing mounted guns were replaced by the Mauser MG151 20mm cannons imported from Germany, making the armament two 12.7mm machine guns and two 20mm cannons. ... "

And here is the one for Ki-61-I-Tei:

"In the beginning, this model was called the Type 3 Model 1 Fighter KAI, Type 3 Model 1 KAI Fighter, or the Ki-61-I-KAI.  To improve the armament, the fuselage mounted guns were replaced with the Ho-5 20mm cannons ..."

It is the case that Ki-61-I-KAI is the Tei subtype, as referred to in documents in Japan.  The "c" in itself is confusing.

Therefore, instead of using translations, I would like to suggest using the nomenclature used in Japan and write them as Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei, etc as we would pronounce them and as seen in the profiles of the Ki-61s that I posted in the thread What is the Ki-61-I-KAIc (in Aircraft and Vehicles)  This would avoid misconceptions and misunderstandings because references and documentations in Japan would directly refer to it.

I would like to start this petition to rename the Hein on AH to Ki-61-I-Tei or Ki-61-I-KAI.  I prefer Ki-61-I-Tei because it was used officially.

Those who agree, please say aye!  Nay's are also welcome

More to follow...

oh yeah... please thank Mitsu for the scanned images of the articles.  He gave me a lot more, but for now I chose to show these one here because the post will become very heavy to display.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by FDutchmn

Those who agree, please say aye!  Nay's are also welcome

Er, how about one of these...

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by Ripsnort

Er, how about one of these...

[LePaul]

I read it twice, and still don't understand....

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by LePaul
I read it twice, and still don't understand....

hmmm... ok...

I wanted to take this step by step but it seems I have to bring another aspect to make this case.

The Ki-61-I-KAIc as modelled on AH did not exist in reality when we take a look at documents in Japan.  For example, as Mitsu pointed out, there is an issue with fuel tanks.

There are currently three fuel tanks, the Right Wing, Left Wing and AUX fuel tanks.  And it carries the Ho-5 20mm cannons.

The Ki-61-I-Hei had three fuel tanks but did not carry the Ho-5 20mms (had the MG151 instead).  The Ki-61-I-Tei had four fuel tanks (aft fuel tank was added) and carried the Ho-5 20mms.  The fact here is that the number of fuel tanks and the type of guns it carries does not match.

Our point (mine and Mitsu's... and several other players) feel that something is not right here and can be corrected.  If we can do this, then we should start by correcting the name first, so we have a common basis on what we are talking about.

I can translate the article and give a summary of the modification by subtypes and the reasons for the modifications but, well... that will take a lot of effort on my part.  (I will try to do that soon)

more to follow...

[Ripsnort]

If your saying the model doesn't coincide with the aircraft, than I changed my sleepy smiley to a plea to either A)Change the aircraft in AH to match the name...or B) Change the name to match the aircraft.

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
If your saying the model doesn't coincide with the aircraft, than I changed my sleepy smiley to a plea to either A)Change the aircraft in AH to match the name...or B) Change the name to match the aircraft.

Yep, ya got it... however, the solution isn't that simple I am afraid...

Here is a summary on the situation...

Ki-61 on AH:

• Number of Fuel Tanks - 3
• Armament - Fuselage mounted Ho-5 20mm Cannons x 2, Wing mounted H103 12.7mm x 2

Ki-61-I-Hei:

• Number of Fuel Tanks - 3
• Armament - Wing mounted MG151 20mm Cannons x 2, Fuselage mounted H103 12.7mm x 2

Ki-61-I-Tei:

• Number of Fuel Tanks - 4
• Armament - Fuselage mounted Ho-5 20mm Cannons x 2, Wing mounted H103 12.7mm x 2

The way I see it, the possible solutions are:

1. call it the Ki-61-I-Hei, change the guns to MG151 asynchronized

or

2. call it the Ki-61-I-Tei, add an extra fuel tank, and change the paint job cuz it's the one for Ki-61-I-Hei

I prefer solution 2....

more to follow....

[LePaul]

Thanks for clarifying

Now I follow!

[AmRaaM]

*yawn* gonna go trim my toenails for some real excitement.

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by AmRaaM
*yawn* gonna go trim my toenails for some real excitement.

[Mitsu]

If you don't understand, carry Ki-61-I-Tei's history on the Aces High Help.

[J_A_B]

How did the ammo load for the wing-monted MG151 cannons compare to the ammo load for the nose-mounted Ho-5's?

J_A_B

[shinsuke sekijima]

i want to call it "ki61-Tei" too:)

"tei"  has a little Long nosed(200mm longer nose, than earlier models called" ki61-kou ,otu & hei)

and bad  Power/weight ratio than earlier models.

i want call their model types, in japanese Langage  

(Otu, Hei, Tei)

I think, Best balance of Ki-61 was "Kou & Otu"
but without 20mm canon(i can't shot down nmes,without 20mm;)
but  well turn & climb than "Tei" i think.

ki-61 's Early battle main fields is New Guinea i think.

at New Guinea, main type was ki61"Kou" & "Otu" &"Hei"
(Hei=20mm Mauser wing mounted)
        Nose   Wing
Kou   12.7     7.7mm
Otu   12.7     12.7mm
Hei    12.7     20mm
Tei     20        12.7mm  (Long nosed +200mm)

My Best plane is ki61:) (for Lo-Alt sissers & small-R -turned~HO fight:)

& very strong for Dive~ high-G- Pull up:)

& very fast cycle canon(type-Tei's Ho-5 20mm)
(bullet is light weght=a little Lo stopping power, but very fast cycles:)

best styling Plane in WW2  i think:)

[Mitsu]

puNT.

[FDutchmn]

Guys, guys,...

Repeat after me...

Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei,...  (all with short vowel sounds)

In Japanese, these words designate the order of things.  Ko would be the first, Otsu the second, Hei the third, and Tei the fourth.

So, in translations, to designate the subtypes of a certain aircraft, Ko would be translated as a, Otsu as b, Hei as c, and Tei as d.

Keeping this in mind... sorry DblTrbl, not to pick on you or anything, but from your post on Gun Synchronization...

One source I found says that 388 Ki-61 Ia and Ki-61 Ib had the MG151/20 installed in the wings in place of the original machine guns and were then referred to as Ki-61 Ia otsu and Ki-61 Ib otsu.

"Ki-61-Ia ostu" be translated as "Ki-61 Ia b" and "Ki-61 Ib otsu" as "Ki-61 Ib b"?  Kinda odd don't you think?  Furthermore, replacing the wing mounted guns with the MG151/20 will make these two planes effectively the same plane with the same armament.

This is the level or quality of translations that we usually see.  And from this we can safely say that "non-existing" nomenclature is being used quite often.

So, to get away from these "non-existing" nomenclatures and mistranslations, let us use the original ones that we (all of us) see in Japan, calling it by the Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei, etc.

Getting back to our subject on our beloved Ki-61s...

As Mitsu already pointed out,

Ki-61-I-Ko (Ki-61-I-a) has 2 12.7mm and 2 7.7mm.
Ki-61-I-Otsu (Ki-61-I-b) has 4 12.7mm.

This coincides with the documentation on Aircrafts of the World.  However, in this documentation , the Ki-61s with the MG151 20mm cannons are not given a subtype of its own when it is clearly stated in the Japanese material I have presented that the Ki-61s with the German cannons installed is the Ki-61-I-Hei, a subtype of its own.  I would say that if we are to translate Ki-61-I-Hei, it would be the Ki-61-I-c.  Where did the Ki-61-I-c go?

If we translate the term "Ki-61-I-KAIc" back to Japanese, we would see it as Ki-61-I-KAI-Hei?  I am very much suspecting that this is a result of misunderstandings in the translations.

Like Mitsu and Sekiji, I, as a member of this community, would like to establish a common ground to discuss issues of Japanese planes.  Nomenclature happens to be part of this common ground.

I suspect that the reason why Asahi Journal posted the profiles of the Ki-61s with the nomenclature used in Japan was that it was also trying to circumvent all these "non-existing" nomenclatures.

As I mentioned earlier, please, let's use the Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei designations so that it coincide with original nomenclatures used in Japan.

As for our "Ki-61-I-KAIc", some of the characteristics matches that of the Ki-61-I-Tei (Ki-61-I-d if we translate it).  For example, the nose was lengthened by 200mm, and they both carry the Ho-5 cannons.  

Let's call our bird Ki-61-I-Tei or Ki-61-I-KAI at least.  Other corrections can come later.  I have seen arguments to correct the Spits in other threads, well... this argument that I am presenting here is also on the same dimension.



BTW, J_A_B, I have not forgotten about your question.  Kindly let me or Mitsu get back to you.