Poll: Anti-stick stir control freeze or not?

[TT]

 I thought this would be a one guy one vote deal but since others have posted more then once i will as well.

 I borrowed a TM stick from a friend. If you think you are not fighting with one hand behind your back (if you have a pre pro) you are liveing along de,nile. As to the comments about inferior brands, thats just a prejudice. My stick is outstanding for AW FA and WB. All of which ive played.

 This game is still in beta. And im sure it will go through many changes before it is done. Score doesnt mean anything at this point to most people. I cant imagin why it would. But the direction the sim is moveing in does matter. If there is no more than passing intrest in fair play, I think people will pick up on this and get discouraged. Im not suggesting that this is the case. It is just that these people are so busy trying to put this thing togather, they just dont have time to keep us abreast of ever turn they take.

 At this point ive seen to much stick yanking to belive that the SSS is anything but a nuseance in its current configuration.

[val]

TT wrote: "I borrowed a TM stick from a friend. If you think you are not fighting with one hand behind your back (if you have a pre pro) you are liveing along de,nile. "

I am confused by your post. Did the TM fix your problem or not? What do you mean by 'in de,nile' if you have a pre pro?

When you say "My stick is outstanding for AW FA and WB. All of which ive played.", that doesn't mean your stick isn't spiking.

None of those games use code to freeze stick inputs to counter stick stirring. If spiking sticks are triggering this code, then it is possible that you have a spikey stick and do not know it.

To resolve the issue you need to determine if the problem is related to hardware, flying style, stick driver, or in the AH code.

I am not trying to argue and fight with you. I am trying to understand and help you resolve the issue. From your last post I cannot tell whether or not the loaner stick made a difference for you. Please explain further.

val

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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death

[Fishu]

Hblair: you have to take note on that every player doesn't have same kind of equipment, which can affect into anti-stick stir.
Myself, I might get that stick freeze if I use my key rudder for simple maneuver (sometimes even on the runway)

Can you call that as stick stirring or any kind of abusing?

Ghosth & Downtown: that would be more rude against people who dont do anything wrong but gets stick freezes

v0.37 damper things, they don't seem to affect on key rudder.

[hblair]

Fishu I'm not trying to be a smart a*s so don't take it that way, but flying around using keys for rudder isn't exactly practical is it?

To test your problem last night I flew a sortie offline with only rudder keys. I got a stick freeze message. I adjusted my yaw sliders, and wala! it fixed the problem, took every bit of 3 minutes offline.

I noticed in my CDW catalog that Logitech has a new stick with a twist rudder and 8 or 9 buttons for 30 to 40 bucks. I've owned a Logitech stick before and they are well built. You might go in that direction.

TT, I've known you and flown with you on another simm and I know how deadly you are when you get dialed in, but I really think it may be your stick. If you've had it less than a year you can take it back under microsoft warranty. My MS Force Feed stick went bad after only 6 months, spiking, jumping, then finally quit working altogether. At first the problem was periods of nonresponse, then gradually got worse.
If you've had your stick less than a year, it wouldn't hurt to take it back, would it?
Most places give you a new stick on the spot.
(thats what I got)

If it turns out its not your stick I'll let you shoot me down 20 times straight.  

I'm not trying step on any toes, but I'm thinking the people with these problems are either just plane 'ol stick stirrers or they are geniunely good pilots with some sort of bad; marginal; or not enough hardware.

[Vermillion]

I use to fly with a Sidewinder Precision Pro.

But I ended up going thru 3 of them, all in less than a year, and I decided that the durabiity just wasn't there.

So I sprang for a sale on buy.com and bought the CH Fighterstick and Pro Throttle (already owned a set of rudders) as a set for real cheap (realitively). I haven't regretted it every since.

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,

[Fury]

Me and my 3 year old MS Sidewinder 3D Pro have never seen this message.  

In theory I like the idea and vote to keep it.  In reality, if it is not working properly, tweak or get rid of it.

[TT]

 HB. If the SSS worked, an argument could be made for requiring another stick. But stick stirring has  slowed very little. It seems to be very popular among the p51 guys in particular. Ive called 2 or 3 guys on it, on the open channel. and they never answer me so I assume they know there doing it.

[PapaFox]

I want to see -blk-- be able to do his snap roll. It will make for a more interesting fight. If we leave some type of stick-stirring prevention in, it needs to be implemented well.

I had many ss messages in .36, but not in .37. Things have improved, but they could stand to improve some more. A pilot should be able to make an abrupt combination control movement at slower speeds. However, he should not be able to get away with continuous abrupt control movements if this causes problems in a computer environment. Personally, I hate the idea of control lock-ups, but I would tolerate this solution if it only happened in obvious ss cases.

Since the responses in this topic are still divided, it indicates to me that more tweaking of the anti-stirring code is still needed. I look forward to a future post by -blk-- stating that he can do a decent snap roll the way he likes to without getting the control lockup. When that post happens, we know we're getting closer to a useable product.

[iculus]

I realize that this message probably won't get read due to the number of messages on this thread.

This stick-stir is real lame... we are striving for an accurate sim, yet we are technically putting in a system that detracts from realism.  Think of it this way: now in a jam...guns defense... not only do we have to fear the con, but now we need to fear the front end itself.

in short, lose it!!

Iculus
Warrant Officer, 111FG

[val]

ICULUS if your idea of "Guns Defense" is banging the stick around enough to trigger the SS code, then you may have devolped bad flying habits that borderline on stick stirring.

-BLK- doesn't like the code, because he can't "bang the controls" around like he is used to. Is the code bad or his flying habits?

TT has not openly stated whether or not a different stick made a difference for him.

Listen to yourselves. I don't think some of you know what Stick Stirring is. AH punishes over-controlling the AC. If that is your flying style, then it is time to review and adjust.

I have seen more examples of bad flying habits, and possible flakey joysticks than concise and reasoned discussion about the code. Those that are against the code will have to find better arguements if they want to convince HTC to remove it.

val



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Scott (val) Valline
Dweebs of Death

[TT]

I was only able to get the message one time out of many trys with the TM stick. I climbed to 12k, than put it into a rip the wings off dive. When the speedo was pegged i yank the thing around and managed to get the SSS. Other than that I yank the thing all over the place and could not set off the SSS.

 BTW. if any SW owners doubt this, go to a store that will take the thing back. Buy one and try it your self. If you can borrrow one that is less hassel  .

  Another BTW. All my whineing makes it sound like this is not a great sim. Nothing could be less true. They made it clear from the start that it was not for everybody (no mac,s ect.) They will either change The SSS or not. I doubt anybody has a vote on the matter. As HT told me "there is no they. Ill decide whether to turn it off or not". It is just my bad luck to be fond of the wrong stick. Frankly, IMHO the lack of toggel button alone will have some sw owners looking to other new sims as they come out.

 Regardless this is my last post on this subject. It is not like HT is unaware of the problem. More than one post on the matter by, an indiviual, is not likely to sway him one way or another.

[This message has been edited by TT (edited 11-05-1999).]

[This message has been edited by TT (edited 11-05-1999).]

[jedi]

Guys, this is a fairly simple, yet almost universally MIS-understood phenomenon here.  I've heard guys clamoring for blackouts, redouts, stalls, excess drag penalties, and all manner of "I think stick stirring should do THIS" models.

The FACT is that "stick-stirring" a REAL airplane would produce NONE of those effects.  Stick-stirring a REAL plane produces a mild, cyclic, low-amplitude gyration.  In effect, it causes the airplane to "wobble."  And that's ALL it does.  The pilot isn't pinned to the ceiling, or banging off the canopy.  What occurs is basically "pilot-induced dampening" of the control inputs.  Before each control input has a chance to produce a flight path deviation, the pilot has introduced a maximum control input opposite the previous input.  The airplane moves, but only a little bit.

In the SIM, with netlag, the SMOOTHING CODE translates stick-stirring into LARGE deviations from the original flight path and attitude, because it "moves" the aircraft in the direction of the control deflection, and then WAITS for an update before it "discovers its mistake" and moves the aircraft back the other way.  Exactly the WRONG result!

So, IF the anti-stick-stir code can be tweaked properly, it will in fact result in the MOST realistic SIMULATION of what happens to the plane when you stick-stir.  Sure, from the cockpit, stick-stirring will not "feel" realistic, because you're hauling on the pole for all it's worth, and nothing is happening.  From the OUTSIDE, tho, your plane will be doing about what a REAL one would do.

And of course, the question must be asked:  "Why do you want the airplane to "feel right" when you're stick-stirring?"  You're not supposed to be stick-stirring in the first place, so don't cry about it when you get caught and get spanked  

Which is not to say it's "right" NOW, if it's interpreting simple stick spiking as stick-stirring and punishing guys for not having "perfect" joysticks.

But as for "realism," it's quite simply the most imaginative approach yet to this problem, and more realistic than any of the other suggestions I've seen.

If you've flown real planes and tried to "stick stir" one, you know what I'm talking about.  If not, sadly, it's not something you're going to "intuitively" believe.  You kinda have to see it to believe it.

--jedi

[-blk--]

  Jedi!  You've done it!  Now I get why I can't stand this thing.  I didn't think of the smoothing code thing.

[Edit]
  OK, just went and played with this.  I think I can live with the model with regard to snap rolls and all if I put the dampening up a tad.  Now, that makes the FM feel mushy to me, but now I can enter a spin/snap roll with as much control deflection as I please (even though it the mushy FM makes it take too long, but I can live with it).

  However, I've discovered another problem.  I was just playing around with it...  So, I decided to do a few rolls on a point (the sun workeed nicely).  After about 720 degrees of roll (two rolls), I would get the stick stir message.  Now, I thought this might because I had full aileron, about half rudder, and am punching the elevator in and out to roll around the point.  So, I decide to do some plain aileron rolls to duplicate the problem.  Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimes it happens after a single roll, other times I could roll four or five times before I got it.  

  So, to see if it might be spiking of the stick or rudder pedals, I put the dampening WAY up.  Now, it sometimes seemed to do it even more!?!  

  Anyone know what's causing this?  If anything, I would suspect the rudder pedals, since they're three years old (RCS).  I doubt the stick (Force FX, 4 months old).  I assume the throttle can't contribute to the SS code (SFS, 4 months old)

A confused:
blk

 

[This message has been edited by -blk-- (edited 11-05-1999).]

[Absinthe]

A note to MS Sidewinder user:

I have used various Sidewinder stick for years now, and I can tell you that they are very sensitive compared to other sticks. In order to fly smoothly, you need to lower the sensitivity (the stick scaling sliders in joystick setup, particularly toward the left end of the scale.

The default settings are far to sensitive for my tastes -- try toning down the scalings and see what you think.

absnth

[robocop]

Aaarrgh!

Just downloaded version 0.37   (my last was 0.34)  Please get rid of the lag in control response,  it is starting to feel like Warbirds.

Version 0.34 was great, nice and instantaneous, just like a real aircraft.  

Please don't sacrifice the wonderful flying qualities of 0.34 for this stick stirring problem...

Rob Coppock
rob@pctestpilot.com