Author Topic: Eastern front (for Oldman and Charon) (Read 2407 times)

fd ski · « **Reply #15 on:** March 12, 2002, 01:25:16 PM »

....and just to remind you, most of this toejam wouldn't have happend if
a) german people didn't march behind hitler
b) they didn't start their little war....

Ripsnort · « **Reply #16 on:** March 12, 2002, 01:37:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by fd ski
....and just to remind you, most of this toejam wouldn't have happend if
a) german people didn't march behind hitler
b) they didn't start their little war....

A rebuttal would be something along the lines of a Treaty written after WW1 that impoverished the Germans into wanting to follow anyone willing to lead them back from poverty to prosperity.

fd ski · « **Reply #17 on:** March 12, 2002, 01:42:35 PM »

OK rip, everything will be better, and we'll all be richer, all you have to do is follow me.
We'll kill all the canadians and take their land ( we need the space ) and then we'll systematically exterminate all the spanish types, since they are so racially impure.

Would you really follow that slogan ?

"we were abused for wwI" excuse is shallow and overused. Germany itched to go to WWI just as it did for WWII. Sarajevo was nothing more then a starting sygnal for contenders long prepared for the race..

Ripsnort · « **Reply #18 on:** March 12, 2002, 01:46:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by fd ski
OK rip, everything will be better, and we'll all be richer, all you have to do is follow me.
We'll kill all the canadians and take their land ( we need the space ) and then we'll systematically exterminate all the spanish types, since they are so racially impure.

Would you really follow that slogan ?

"we were abused for wwI" excuse is shallow and overused. Germany itched to go to WWI just as it did for WWII. Sarajevo was nothing more then a starting sygnal for contenders long prepared for the race..

You missed the point, being...an impoverished nation will reach out to anyone. Who's fault was that? Well certainly a generation or two before Hitler came along, but to punish the future generations with poverty was simply stoking the stove before adding firewood(Hitler) In other words, war most likely would have happened with, or without Hitler leading the Germans.

(I might add, this is exactly the opinion of the liberal left today in 2002 of our current 3rd world nations, I'm surprized that you don't agree with the concept)

straffo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 12, 2002, 02:29:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort

A rebuttal would be something along the lines of a Treaty written after WW1 that impoverished the Germans into wanting to follow anyone willing to lead them back from poverty to prosperity.

in short : My bellybutton

long version : not availlable yet.

Blame the allied.

Do you now that there is still some place in France were nothing grow ?
Not even grass ?

And last week 2 children of 9 and 10 year died because of a German shell "forgotten" (I presume) during WWI

straffo · « **Reply #20 on:** March 12, 2002, 02:32:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort

You missed the point, being...an impoverished nation will reach out to anyone. Who's fault was that? Well certainly a generation or two before Hitler came along, but to punish the future generations with poverty was simply stoking the stove before adding firewood(Hitler) In other words, war most likely would have happened with, or without Hitler leading the Germans.

(I might add, this is exactly the opinion of the liberal left today in 2002 of our current 3rd world nations, I'm surprized that you don't agree with the concept)

Great !

Why those german didn't do the same in 1871 ??

They unfortunatly forgotten this option ... oups I'm suer they were sorry ...

My bellybutton again.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2002, 02:37:26 PM »

Straffo, I'm simply putting forth the same liberal arguements that they use in todays world. Didn't say I'd agree with them. My first post said "A rebuttal would be..." not "MY".

straffo · « **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2002, 03:06:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Straffo, I'm simply putting forth the same liberal arguements that they use in todays world. Didn't say I'd agree with them. My first post said "A rebuttal would be..." not "MY".

err ... over reacted again ... (I need to plan some vacation)

sorry Rip

I missed your point

About the liberal part it just passed over my head as liberal in france got a complete different meaning ...

Our liberals are somewhat like your republican and it allways confuse me

miko2d · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2002, 03:38:31 PM »

Boroda: Miko, don't say such stupid things any more.
The worst Soviet "official war crime" was to let every soldier send 16kg of "trophy" home.
Anyway, the Nuremburg Court stated it straight enough. The real military criminals got what they deserved.
I see you read your PRAVDA diligently.

lynx: Miko - you don't have to forget where you came from to be a good American.

What the heck is so special about us that makes anyone suppose that russian soldier would be any less raping and murdering bastard then lowlife from any other nation? There are good russians and there are bad russians - like any other nation.
All russian history from the first mention till the current time is full of rape and murder - like any other nation.
Why would soldiers coming from inhumane society, raised in fear and intolerance and serving under the worst conditions of any in WWII and suffering the worst rate of casualties not be among the most cruel when it came to treating civilians?

Wasn't there an unprecedented raise in banditism and murder rate in Soviet Union around the end of the war? Come on! We had thousands of people who engaged in cannibalism in Ukraine in 1930s, let alone murdering people for food. Not even talking about atrocities done during "collectivisation". You expect anyone to believe that the same people would care about any civilised standards once they were serving in Soviet Army in Germany? That the officers would dare to intervene even if they had a reason to care about what soldiers did?

Not that americans did not commit their share of atrocities - Dresden, etc.

As for the evidence and Nurenberg trial, and so few cases of the allied atrocities - what do you expect? The investigations and trials are conducted by the victorious side. Vae victis! - Woe to the conquered!

miko

Hortlund · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2002, 04:20:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by -lynx-
Hortlund - you've stated that you do not condone nazism but you seem to be doing pretty well "revising" history. You may not use lies but you've surely mastered an art of massaging the truth.

I'm not sure whether you were looking for some kind of response from me or not. Starting out by calling me a revisionist is not the best way to do that however.

Consider yourself squelched.

Boroda · « **Reply #25 on:** March 12, 2002, 05:15:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raubvogel
Lynx, I wasn't disputing the fact that the Germans committed atrocities against Soviet citizens. They most certainly did. What amazes me is that Boroda seems to think that the Soviet troops were angels in comparison. That is simply not true at all.

It is true.

They were angels in comparison.

And my point is that Soviet official doctrine was to avoid atrocities and any "collateral damage". While nazis wanted to phisically eliminate my nation. My both nations - Russians and Ukrainians. And many other nations. Ever heard about "plan Ost"?

Boroda · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2002, 05:20:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo

And last week 2 children of 9 and 10 year died because of a German shell "forgotten" (I presume) during WWI

Straffo, here we still have people torn to pieces by German mines in theforests and fields every year...

One of my worst nightmares is a kid from my group digging such a mine or an old shell when I am hiking...

Raubvogel · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2002, 05:26:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda

It is true.

They were angels in comparison.

And my point is that Soviet official doctrine was to avoid atrocities and any "collateral damage". While nazis wanted to phisically eliminate my nation. My both nations - Russians and Ukrainians. And many other nations. Ever heard about "plan Ost"?

Boroda-my father's family is originally from East Prussia. One side is ethnic Polish, the other Ethnic German. I've spoken with folks who were there when the Russians were advancing on Germany. I don't know what you've learned, but Russians soldiers were brutal rapists and murderers. I'm not going to argue with you and your propaganda. I don't have to, I've heard it from a far more reliable source. Keep your mind closed and believe the crap you were force fed.

Boroda · « **Reply #28 on:** March 12, 2002, 05:35:39 PM »

Miko:

I see you read your PRAVDA diligently.

And you watch your stupid TV eating popcorn, don't you?

What the heck is so special about us that makes anyone suppose that russian soldier would be any less raping and murdering bastard then lowlife from any other nation?

You can think whatever your toejam-box tells you, but I have to say that "evil communist regime" and "bloody NKVD hangmen" were the force that made Soviet soldiers behave like humans, not like bloodthirsty nazy beasts.

Most of the vets I have talked to said they wanted a revenge for what they saw on liberated land. And they were literaly biting their elbows because they were not allowed to show a slightest trace of revenge...

Hortlund:
I'm not sure whether you were looking for some kind of response from me or not. Starting out by calling me a revisionist is not the best way to do that however.

Well, you already showed that you are a revisionist. If we'll ever listen to that kind and will let our children listen - it's the worst offence for the memory of our Granfathers.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #29 on:** March 12, 2002, 05:43:55 PM »

From Black Cross-Red Star Volume 1:
"The Germans- both the notorious Einsatzgruppen of the SD and ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers- started the deliberate mass execution of unarmed civilians on June 23. Local nationailists in the Ukraine and the Baltic States took part with enthusiasm, killing hundreds of thousands of Jews and Communists during the following weeks and months. Two million Soviet POWs had perished in German captivity by February 1942. And finally, one million to two million people were to starve to death in besieged Leningrad and in the territories occupied by the Germans during the coming months of the war."

The Germans are no more clean of war attrocities than any other nation. They just managed it on a grander scale, and with an ever-striving desire to make it more "efficient".
-SW