Eastern front (for Oldman and Charon)

[Oldman731]

So Hortlund, Your Honor, Sir, are you going to make some Greater Point here before the Finns and Russians start (yet another) war?

- Oldman

[Staga]

Boroda: What I found is Eino Pietola is better known as a "action-writer" than a historian. If Clive Cussler begins to wrote history-books I would read them very carefully

[Boroda]

Raubvogel, what you gave me as a "document" is nothing more then another stupid Cold-war propaganda roadkill. Russians are so evil that they should be all executed if they were under trial that never happened. Is what you quoted a college research of some lame student in political "science"? Keep on following the McCarthy line.

BTW, did you read my posts? Once again and slowly now: deportation of German population from East Prussia was always admitted by Soviet authorities. It was done according to Yalta and Potsdam agreements. Calling it "genocide" is another good example of revisionism. In fact, repressions against American communists in 40s-50s are a much worse crime.

You didn't answer my direct question about Slavic slaves.

Staga, thank you for the information. The information in both sources looks serious and emotionless. The second author is introduced as a "military historian" with academic military education.

What I want to know is how "ethnic segregation" (let me use this more neutral term) is presented in official Finnish history.

And you didn't answer my question about "Soviet partisans".

The last thing I want to do is to start a "war".

[Staga]

Boroda I have to admit "ethnic segregation" sounds little strange. Since middle-age Finland has been in tight hug from both neighbours and we had large minority of Swedish and Russians here and I haven't heard about the issue you're writing about earlier.

I have several boxes of books at my home and I'll search more information about those partisans. Usually they were quite small groups (10-20) thought biggest was about 200 AFAIR. Their targets were usually small villages near border wich were having only couple older soldiers as a guards or not soldiers at all. I don't remember any case they would been attacking against military targets thought few groups did report back to their HQ that they destroyed big military camps...

I'll post more information to you later this weekend.

[Boroda]

Staga, particular facts I want to check:

1) Ethnic Russian and other non-Finn (I mean not "relative nations" like Saams etc.) population of Karelia held in concentration camps. Or - let us call it "forced isolation".

2) "Relative nations" wearing special marks on their clothes.

3) Were that "partisans" a regular army units wearing uniforms, or just gangs of armed civilians?

I know that Finland always respected minorities, and you even have Sweedish as a second language, that's why that things surprised me. From what I read it looked like nazis in Poland.

You know, there are always some people who hate their countries and write crappy books picturing their compatriots as animals. It's a big problem here in Russia after 1991, when American version of slightly altered nazi historical views were unofficialy adopted here. Books I mentioned can be of that kind. But I compare some facts with what I heard from people I can call witnesses - and this two things correspond very well. I don't want to act like Raubvogel, I want to get a picture from all possible sides.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Boroda


Sorry, Tronski. I didn't read your post carefully

Here is a souurce you "challenged":

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/USSR5.htm

1. For offenses committed by members of the Wehrmacht and its employees against enemy civilians, prosecution is not compulsory, not even if the offense is at the same time a military crime or violation.

My point in this discussion is that, unlike nazis, Soviet authorities did the best they could to prevent violence. For people like Raubvogel it's another reason to blame bloody communists: they were so insidious that they did their best to leave no cause to blame them in military crimes.

Edit: here is a link to the wehrmacht crimes index:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/wehrmacht.htm

I think you've taken the one quote out of context.
Even so even the sentence taken out of the text is a statement that prosecution is not compulsory . Not that prosecution is forbidden, which I think is the point your trying to push.

Furthermore in point three of the text it states:

3. The judge examines therefore whether in such cases disciplinary action is justified or whether it is necessary to take legal steps. The judge orders the prosecution of offenses against civilians through court-martial only if it is considered necessary for the maintenance of discipline or the security of the troops. This applies, for instance, to cases of serious offenses which are based on sexual acts without restraint, which derive from a criminal tendency, or which are a sign that the troop threatens to mutiny. The punishable offenses of destroying senselessly quarters as well as supplies or other captured goods to the disadvantage of the own troop should, as a rule, be judged as more leniently.

As you see there is an intention to consider action against crimes committed by German soldiers against the civilian population ie. rape.

The whole text deals with the change in jurisdiction and legal processes when dealing with Partisans and enemy civilians commiting crimes against german forces.

It is most definitely does not signal an  official policy of aggression against russian civilians by the German army with no legal repercussions.

Tronsky

[Raubvogel]

Originally posted by Boroda
Raubvogel, what you gave me as a "document" is nothing more then another stupid Cold-war propaganda roadkill.  

But your sources are the truth?

Keep living in your fantasy world. You're a waste of my time.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by -tronski-


As you see there is an intention to consider action against crimes committed by German soldiers against the civilian population ie. rape.

The whole text deals with the change in jurisdiction and legal processes when dealing with Partisans and enemy civilians commiting crimes against german forces.

It is most definitely does not signal an  official policy of aggression against russian civilians by the German army with no legal repercussions.

Tronsky

Tronski, what you try to point is, im my opinion, some kind of excuse for nazis.

I view it from a different POV: it's an official approval for all the atrocities against Soviet people. It's a nice effort to avoid rapes when the whole people is sentenced to complete elimination.

And, finaly, as I already said - the whole affair was judged in Nuremburg.

Raubvogel, you are a good example of general revisionist policy of your country. Commies are evil because they are. Demolition of Dresden was justified by the fact that it didn't let the whole city to be captured by Soviets. The adoption of nazi slogans is a great achievement of American propaganda. Almost any thing about Soviet Unoion and communists in general that you repeat after your "free media" was invented by dr. Goebbels. Nothing more clever then "Asian hordes of jewish bolsheviks".

[midnight Target]

This may not be the place to discuss this Boroda, but you seem to have a slightly twisted view of how the "Red Menace" was viewed here in America.

Granted we had some very "unAmerican" moments during the McCarthy era, but none of it was due to Goebbels or any other Nazi. Red scares have been happening in this country since the 1917 revolution.

The largest and worst may have been the Red Scare of 1919, 1920. Long before the Nazi's were even a twinkle in Adolf's eye. You have been reading skewed history and may need to research further.

[Boroda]

Midnight Target, yes, I need to research further...

Red Meanace in 1917-18 made you send troops to Archangelsk and, later, to Far East...

If Antanta have sent troops and beat the hell out of Lenin's gang in 1918 - the whole XX century history could be different.

Why did I make an above-mentioned conclusion: in the last few years I have read some translated books with Western view on USSR, and, OTOH, some books describing the works of German "Ministry of Propaganda", mostly - translated too. What amazed me was the obvious similarity between that two views. Frankly speaking - I was shocked.

What we all have to understand is that we are simply different. Not "evil", but just different. What is OK for me can be impossible for you, and vise versa. Your values are sometimes alien to me. You have to understand that these values are not invariantly true. It's hard, and it's hard for me to rethink my values thinking of your point of view too, but we have to try.

[Wulfmen]

Boroda did u know Ilj Ehrenburg
did u know what he say to the Russian troops
did u know what the Russian troops do

I cant translate it right, but here only a few statements from Ilja to the hole Red Army
Tötet die Faschisten wo ihr sie findet, und nehmt die stolzen deutschen frauen um die schweren kämpfe gegen die faschisten zu vergessen.... Vergesst nie, das jedes Deutsche Kind, das ihr seht, das Kind eines Faschisten ist....

After a few Weeks the Russian Army stops this Massacres on the Civilations.

Thats true Boroda.

All Nation do War Crimes, but its not the Nation is the Criminal, its only the People.

greets
ede

[midnight Target]

What we all have to understand is that we are simply different. Not "evil", but just different. What is OK for me can be impossible for you, and vise versa. Your values are sometimes alien to me. You have to understand that these values are not invariantly true. It's hard, and it's hard for me to rethink my values thinking of your point of view too, but we have to try.

Well said Boroda...

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Boroda


Tronski, what you try to point is, im my opinion, some kind of excuse for nazis.

And, finaly, as I already said - the whole affair was judged in Nuremburg.
 

Excuse?  The article was about dealing with crimes commited against German forces by partisans and enemy civilians. Your viewing it as the prime example of the official slaughter of russian civilians ( a job Stalin had been quite adept at before Hitler invaded Russia).

What I pointed out was your flawed take on a single passage.

As for Nuremberg, that is hardly a shining example of justice.  More a sideshow of tokenism , as most of the real criminals often found there way into the Soviet, and American intelligence and scientific communities trading their knowledge for freedom.

Luftwaffe Colonel Martin Fiebig was executed as a war criminal in '46, for the 1941 bombing of Belgrade when the luftwaffe bombed the government buildings in the centre of the city severing all communication with the Yugoslav field armies. Causing between 3,000-17,000 civilian causalties in the process. Yet did the allied bomber barons face your bastion of 'juistice'??

The Soviets are hardly likely to extol their record of post-war justice.

Survivors of the 19th Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS Lettische Nr2 taken at the Courland pocket in '45 were all executed as traitors, on the pretext the volunteers from the forcibly annexed Latvia were infact now soviet citizens.
The same treatment was handed out to captured Estonian members of the 20th Waffen-Grenadier Div der SS Estnische Nr1.

 Tronsky

[Charon]

bump

Subject came up in Aircraft forum, no point in rediscussing these issues there.

Charon

[Boroda]

Hehe.

Something has to be done.

BTW, Leonid (5th GvIAP, 16th GvIAP in WB) is living in my apartment now. He is the one of the few Americans on this forum who understands me. Hehe, just returned from Leningrad with him