Author Topic: Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....  (Read 3178 times)

Offline hazed-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2467
      • http://combatarena.users.btopenworld.com
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« on: March 19, 2002, 11:03:34 AM »
Its getting real old driving for 20 minutes to get to any action only for some 50 cal armed plane killing you in 1 or 2 passes.

I think its roadkill and its spoiling the fun in tanks.


Lets make it so tanks require the CORRECT tools for the job.

we have rockets and bombs to kill them with so why do we have to cater for the quake heads and make tanks killable by machine guns?

AH claims to be realistic but this is getting to be a joke.

after several sorties in a panzer and im venting it.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2002, 11:18:14 AM by hazed- »

Offline Swoop

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9180
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2002, 11:28:51 AM »
What Hazed said.


Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2002, 11:55:25 AM »
1)Panzer armour and suceptability to small calibre fire

Agree. Panzers should ONLY lose their tracks and their pintle MG to 50 cal planes. I think only the 37mm in the yak9t and the 40mm on the hurricane should be able to damage the panzer. Ostwinds should lose their turret to ANY MG hit (including 303).. its an open hatch for feks sake. M16's and M3's should lose their gun turrets with a few hits of 50 cal. Their bullet shields only worked against rifle caliber , not 50 cals or bigger.  

2)pintle mg on panzers is too powerfull for its rifle type calibre

Totally agree. I dont know how the hell a 7.9 mm can cause instant pilot wound every whoopee time a pz hits you. I've HO'd p47s and I still have to get a pilot wound. And guess which one is shooting more lead at you.
 
3)ball turret on B17 can fire through fuselage and tail up to 30 degrees too high

Lanc tail turret can also fire to 4 oc and 8 oc .

4)durability of LA7 seems too high(just opinion here)

Yep, considering its just an La5 with a few mods to its engine.. the La5 dies sssooo much quicker.
 
5)HE rounds on a 75mm gun are FAR too weak.(things like fuel tanks take 3-4 hits? ack has to be almost hit spot on)

HE rounds should, IMO, be the equiv. of 100lbs bomb EACH shell. Ive hit hangars with nearly all the M8 HE ammo and it was only until I had like 10 shells left that the hangar blew up.

6)smaller 100lb-250lb HE bombs are generally too weak.

Yes, there is no use for them in the game. Why take a small bomb when taking the biggest one is much better? Both bombs will drag you, both will be salvoe'd if in trouble, and the bigger bombs will do much more damage/flatten more town buildings. Would be nice if the heavy bombs were only available if the field's ammo dump or strat ammo factory are 100%. If they 75% or lower, only the 500lb or lower will be avaliable.

Ill add to your list:

7) Bombs have very little blast damage. A 1k bomb dropped a dozen yds from an M3... does NOTHING. You literally have to hit the thing directly or right next to it (inside 5 yds or so) to do any damage. IRL even a 100lb bomb dropped in 10 yds from it would flip the thing over.  Would also be cool to see the shockwave from the bombs :)

8) M8's need smoke rounds. LOTS of them. Since there is no cover in the terrain for tanks, the smoke rounds would provide it. Give the M8 about 50 smoke rounds please.

9) Gunners on bombers wear deflector shields. Sit on the tail of a lanc and put a good spray of 50 cal on the very tip of the tail... and that tail gunner will shoot you down. Strafe a b17 from nose to tail with 50 cals or 303's... nada, all gunners keep firing. Only cannons seem to blow gunners away. Last time I checked the b17s' armor was nonexistant, even rifle bullets went through. So how is it a 50 cal or 303 hits all throught the fuselage does zilch to the gunners?

10) Truck convoys... strafe a truck with cannon and 50 cals.. and it keeps going. It takes 2 to 3 passes depending on plane's loadout to take down a single truck.

11)

Offline Sabre

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
      • Rich Owen
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2002, 12:11:07 PM »
I can understand your frustration, Hazed.  While I have no analytical data to offer, I've recently read a book called "Fighter-Bomber" by a 9th AF pilot in WWII.  According to his book, this pilot (a squadron commander with over 140 missions in P-40s and P-47s) notes that the American 50-cal was devastating to most armored and non-armored vehicles.  He talkes specifically about killing tanks with them, though not specific types of tanks.  Also, it may be that he uses the term "tank" to generically describe armored vehicles.

I certainly don't have any ballistics and penatration charts to back that up.  However, the P-40 was a principle US fighter bomber in Africa through the first half of the Italian campaign.  As it carried only a modest bomb load (no rockets, I believe), it's principle ground attack weapon were it's six 50-cals.  So they were probably more effective than you're giving them credit for.  Is it possible that the Pnzr-IV's top armor was thin enough in spots that 50-cal AP could penatrate and do damage?  I would think it possible.

The main question I have regarding armor, ballistics and penatration in AH has to do with how they are modelled.  Does the model actually check if a weapon penetrates, or does it simply require a certain weight of ordnance on target to cause damage?  In other words, will any weapon eventually destroy the target if you put enough rounds into it?  I know that if you dump enough 30-cal on an AH building, you will eventually destroy it.  Too, with ships it is the weight of ordnance that hits that is important.  Whether I drop eight 1,000 lb boms or sixteen 500 lb bombs, that CV will sink.  Is it the same way with armored vehicles?  Lastly, does the penatration model take into account the hit location and angle/velocity of the impacting round to determine if damage to the target occurs?  I don't know, but it should.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline ZOSO

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 113
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2002, 12:26:28 PM »
GV damage model needs work, there's no question of that, but as an ex-tanker, let me tell you that the armor on the top of the turret and rear deck can be real thin in spots even in modern super tanks.  Tank armor is distributed to defend against other tanks, not aircraft.  I don't have any data, but from personal experience, it seems ok the way it is now.  Now, about those killer trees :rolleyes:

Offline MANDOBLE

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2002, 12:28:15 PM »
Have u ever seen the tracks of a PzIV AusF? I cant figure out how 50" may damage them except for very very lucky shots.

Offline ergRTC

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1632
      • http://bio2.elmira.edu/DMS/index.pl?table=content&faculty=1&page=1
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2002, 12:50:40 PM »
This could be solved so easily.

 Look at historical records of what was useful in attacking a tank and then gear up the armor so it resembles the historical record.  We dont need tony williams to tell us only a lucky 50 cal shot should KILL a tank.  Disable parts of it easily, but not the formulaic 'if i strafe it 3 times with 50s, that should be enough lead to kill it'.  

If our tanks are being knocked out by 303s and 50cals, raise the armor value on the dam thing.  IF IT TAKES 10 AP ROUNDS TO KNOCK A TURRET OFF ANOTHER PANZER AT 800yards RAISE THE DAMAGE CAUSED BY AN AP ROUND!!!!  HE shells are  a joke and that is all there is to say about that.  You hit a fuel tank with a tank, it should blow up.

This is ridiculus.  I cant believe they are sitting on this one.  Change it, see what happens.  Cant get any worse.  

Oh and while your at it.  WHY NOT MAKE THE STURMI, YAK9T, AND HURRI ACTUALLY DO SOME SERIOUS DAMAGE TO TANKS!!!  Whats gonna happen? if you raise the damage from those rounds it wont have impact on planes, as they pop with one hit as it is!
This is a definite example of something that pyro could sneeze and change, just to see what the result is.  If you are strafing tanks with your spit (guilty) you shouldnt expect any kind of result.  If you whine about them being to strong bring an egg or a rocket.  Then whine about fixing that (pilot) heat seaking 303 on the roof.

Offline Don

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 898
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2002, 01:06:19 PM »
>>M16's and M3's should lose their gun turrets with a few hits of 50 cal. Their bullet shields only worked against rifle caliber , not 50 cals or bigger. <<


Interesting because I have tried to strafe each of these with .50 cal a/c and had to do way more than 2 passes; and I don't bother strafing FPz or M-16s anymore because they are just too impenetrable to mg fire. I have had more success strafing panzers with .50 cals than the other two...go figger :(
The .50 cal was no wussie round yet there seems to be some weirdness with it and certain vehicles.  And no, it isn't my aim;)
In most cases I am registering hits from 600 yds up to 200 feet and no joy. I can see .50 cals disabling armor with armor peircing rounds but, it would take a helluva lot; to my knowledge ap .50 cals aren't modeled in AH aircraft.

Offline hazed-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2467
      • http://combatarena.users.btopenworld.com
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2002, 01:08:49 PM »
ooops sorry tac i edited it out after rereading it :)

now it looks like tac is on a different thread :)


but the list i originally made was the 6 points he mentioned:
I cut it down because i thought we would just end up with another 'stop whining' thread.

kinda suprised me that no one has started this old tactic of spoiling issues brought up by customers by starting the whine anti whine arguements :)

sorry tac but still im glad you agreed

Offline hazed-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2467
      • http://combatarena.users.btopenworld.com
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2002, 01:28:11 PM »
btw just because the P40 was the principle ground attack plane in north africa and it was armed with 50 cals does not prove it can kill tanks or that because it was sent to kill tanks it was capable of doing so with its mgs.

In real life crew didnt spend 24/7 in their tanks and were thus vulnerable, the fuel trucks and ammo trucks and repair trucks were targets as were ground troops supply dumps , just about anything that hindered the enemies ability to fight or wage war.

You menton the small load of bombs planes carried and before i edited my post i made the point that even a 50kg bomb 'should' throw vehicles around and possibly destroy tanks etc and as a panzer driver in AH i can accept dieing in this manner.

What i object to is having the game tailored to a person who cant be arsed learning how to divebomb or launch with an aircraft that is loaded with rockets or bombs and wants to be able to kill everything with what is essentially a small calibre machinegun.

If HTC want to cater for the quake heads then good luck to them.But they will lose those players more interested in simulating the battlefield with a little 'computer help' along the way to make it a fun experience.This doesnt mean we have to have totally unrealistic quake like weapons but it should reflect closely what was used for what, and what objects were damaged with whatever weapon.

take out a panzer? USE A DAMN BOMB OR ROCKET. otherwise why bother adding them to the game?

HTC if you leave it as it is then you may as well arm EVERYTHING with 50 cals and call it WW2 starwars. :mad:
« Last Edit: March 19, 2002, 01:47:07 PM by hazed- »

Offline Virage

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1097
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2002, 01:34:43 PM »
Amen!
JG11

Vater

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2002, 01:40:53 PM »
Couldn't find penetration tables for U.S .50cal but here's something:

Offline ergRTC

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1632
      • http://bio2.elmira.edu/DMS/index.pl?table=content&faculty=1&page=1
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2002, 02:06:14 PM »
you got it brother! AMEN!

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2002, 03:45:00 PM »
that would be nice...

1) make all tanks (flak, pzr,m8) invulnerable to MG and cannon fire that's of 23mm or lower caliber. (that way the il2, 40mm hurri, yak9t and the 30mm rides can strafe tanks.. and again, it would only be those carrying AP rounds that can kill it, so the 109's 190's and 110's and 262's 30mm wont kill a tank)

2) Make the tanks lose their tracks to 50 cal fire or larger, but ONLY if the bullets hit the tracks themselves. Thus, an attacker would have to fly treetop level and aim low to the track to pop the tracks.

3) Make all open-top vehicles (flak, m3, m16, lvt's, ptboats) LOSE their gunners when strafed by any MG. Make the Pzr lose its pintle MG in the same manner (even if the gunner is inside the hatch, the gun itself is very easily knocked out in a hail of bullets).

Zoso: you really saying a 50 cal would penetrate the top armour of a tank? from 500 yards+ (assuming best 90 degree angle shot, and any plane wanting to pull out from such a dive must do so at around d500 IF he's reaaly slow)?

"kinda suprised me that no one has started this old tactic of spoiling issues brought up by customers by starting the whine anti whine arguements "

Damn! I was hoping for just that ;) :) :D

I would also seriously check on the ammo fired by the flaktank. The flaktank is THE best TANK there is.. will beat a pzr, will beat an m8, kicks the crap out of any plane dumb enough to get close with one ping, incredibly refire rate and ammo load.... why use anything else?

Offline pimpjoe

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 944
Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2002, 04:26:29 PM »
maybe the .50cals killing tanks are in place of something. like ricochet for example. i've read numerous accounts of p47 pilots saying they used to shoot right in front of tanks to ricochet the bullet off the ground and hit under the tank where they werent armored.


my .02