Author Topic: Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour..... (Read 3911 times)

illo · « **Reply #60 on:** March 21, 2002, 11:29:32 AM »

Hehe...yes there was even occasion where tank was forced to abandon with mud. Yes you heard right mud. One überfinn seemingly out of his mind attacked KV-1 heavy tank with mud in his hands. He then climbed over it and rubbed mud on vision slits which completely blinded tank. After some time crew realized they had no choice but to abandon vehicle since it's rather hard to drive anywhere without seeing a thing. I think this mud fellow earned mannerheim cross for this action. And finns got brand new KV tank for their own use.

Also there was numerous occasions where finns pushed logs between roadwheels of russian tanks immobilizing them.

Don · « **Reply #61 on:** March 21, 2002, 11:44:21 AM »

>>suffice it to say that the ballistics in AH are in "some aspects" slightly goofy.

Anyhoo......heres hoping for a more challenging guns solution somewhere down the road <<

Hear Hear! Well said Yeager.

Hooligan · « **Reply #62 on:** March 21, 2002, 01:00:16 PM »

ergRTC:

The armor was proof against 30cal/.303 class weapons and provided some protection against .50s (i.e. high angle shots or rounds sufficiently slowed or destabilized by passing through other aircraft elements). Some protection is better than no protection.

Hooligan

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #63 on:** March 21, 2002, 01:43:09 PM »

Hooligan, are u sure that a 13Kg panel of 12mm armour for the head was there to stop 30cals in a 1944 190A8?

Hooligan · « **Reply #64 on:** March 21, 2002, 03:02:54 PM »

Mandoble I know you are not a native English speaker but what part of "provided some protection against .50s" is confusing you?

Hooligan

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #65 on:** March 21, 2002, 03:37:02 PM »

The seat armour had 5mm and this would be intended to provide some protection against 50". A hit in the seat would had passed through some other parts of the plane. But not in the head, these 12mm of armour should provide total protection or just none, "some" protection for the head is like no protection at all.

Hooligan · « **Reply #66 on:** March 21, 2002, 04:13:14 PM »

Mandoble:

Your reading comprehension problems are breathtaking. I suggest you reread what I originally wrote. .50 AP rounds could penetrate over 12 mm of armor plate at 600 meters.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50pen.htm

Hooligan

illo · « **Reply #67 on:** March 21, 2002, 05:09:08 PM »

Here some armor and penetration values for AH vehicles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
M8 Greyhound

(mm/dgr)
turret, front 19/0 side 19/20 rear 19/5
upper hull, front 16/50 side 10/25 rear 10/0
lower hull, front 19/30 side 10/0 rear 10/0
deck 6, open top

37mm MV=884m/s

(AP Penetration(mm) at 100m, 500m, 1000m, 2000m)
0dgr 68, 58, 48, 35
30dgr 54, 47, 39, 28
60dgr 29, 26, 22, 15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ostwind

(mm/dgr)
turret, front 25/37 side 25/30 rear 25/30
upper hull, front 80/10 side 30/0 rear 20/11
lower hull, front 80/12 side 30/0 rear 20/9
deck 12, open top

37mm MV=820m/s
(AP Penetration(mm) at 100m, 500m, 1000m, 2000m)
0dgr 57, 46, 34, 19
30dgr 45, 36, 27, 16
60dgr 22, 19, 15, 9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
M3A1 Halftrack

Armor(mm/drg)
7/0 all surfaces.

illo · « **Reply #68 on:** March 21, 2002, 05:24:18 PM »

PzKpfw IVh (thickness/slope)

top turret 15mm
top deck 12mm

FRONT - turret 50mm/10, upper hull 80mm/14, lower hull 80mm/14
SIDE - turret 30mm/26, upper hull 30/0, lower hull 30/0
REAR - turret 30mm/15, upper hull 20/11, lower hull 20/9

75L48 MV 792m/s (100,500,1000,2000m)

dgr
0 - 141, 130, 113, 91
30 - 108, 100, 90, 73
60 - 53, 50, 46, 39

illo · « **Reply #69 on:** March 21, 2002, 05:55:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
I was in a tank battle the other day at a range of about 1500 to 1800 yards. Before I stoped to shoot i turned my tank directly at the other tank. He was stoped , and shooting out the right side of the tank. He took out my track, but thats all he could do, i on the other hand blew him up with 2 hits. He comes on the radio complaining how the damage model is porked because he hit me quite a few times and couldn't kill me. Well guys this is what pure realism produces, his shots were all hitting in my strongest armor, mine hit him on his side armor. Mine penatrated, his did not.

Now look at an m3, if you put an ap round into the side of the truck, odds are in real life it will just put a hole in the sheet metal and continue on.

Hello Hitech.
He should have penetrated your front turret easily from 1800yards.(Numbers above)
If he was hitting your front hull it would be just on edge of possible penetration. (75mm gun of Pz-IV penetrates 91mm at 0degrees at 2000m.)
But ofcourse trajectory of shell makes 90degree hit angle not likely. Some round might penetrate...some might not. If round just barely penetrates it wouldn't easily destroy tank tho. Armor flaking inside would possibly injure crew member(s) or do just nothing.

illo · « **Reply #70 on:** March 21, 2002, 06:04:52 PM »

Quote

.50 AP rounds could penetrate over 12 mm of armor plate at 600meters.

Yes at optimum angle. So lets guess 400-500m for likely penetration from 6 a clock in aircombat until Tony(he must have some numbers for .50cal) comes here.

5mm might be enough after rounds tubling trough fuselage. Direct hit to 5mm plate would go through to 1000m atleast. But rounds go all but tip ahead and straight after hitting something.

I think i've seen 2 types of head armors in FW190. Other is like angled tube(which seems very good for ricocheting rounds away) other is this 12mm plate youre talking about. I think angled was to have better protection against .50cals since 12mm doesnt seem enough.

hitech · « **Reply #71 on:** March 21, 2002, 06:24:50 PM »

Also , a lot of the armor up front would not cause a 0 deg hit most of it is sloped.

HiTech

Hooligan · « **Reply #72 on:** March 21, 2002, 06:30:12 PM »

Actually those are the same rounds (M2 AP and M8 AP/I) that were commonly used in WWII. Modern rounds like M903 SLAP and M140 Raufoss rounds have significantly better penetration.

Hooligan

illo · « **Reply #73 on:** March 21, 2002, 06:40:54 PM »

Yes hooligan, i was just editing my post. Noticed.(just little problem with inches and stuff, im an european idiot:D)

Thanks for numbers. I've been looking for those.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #74 on:** March 21, 2002, 07:25:23 PM »

Hooligan, I suggest you reread what I originally wrote too, penetrating NOT EQUAL damaging what is behind. Hey, I have english comprehension problems being spanish, but your case is much more alarming

Just to add a point about your link, it states that it was MAXIMUM penetration, I suppose also for optimum conditions, but, in the case of traveling these 12mm, what is the resulting deformation and kinetic E loose of these projectiles?