Request for the, seemingly, upcoming Spitfire F.Mk XIVc

[Nashwan]

If we get the 25lbs. boost/150 octane fuel variant (that was only used for V1 hunting)

150 octane and 25lb boost were used widely in late 44 and 45, and not just by Spits. Even the Mosquito FB.VI was allowed 25lbs boost, and some were futher modified with NO2 injection.

Historically the Spit XIV should have 25lbs boost, but for playbalance it would be too expensive a perk.

[hazed-]

ok my veiw on it is :

USAAF have had the p51D for almost 2 years?
USN had the F4uc for months (before it was perked)
LW have had a dora for months, maybe even a year?
VVS have had the LA7 for months?
IJN have had the NIkJ for a year or so?


I beleive all are late war (1944-45?) aircraft, some very rare others in large production numbers.

Who out of all the countries/sides in the AH war has had the crown of basically the best performing NON PERKED aircraft for the longest ?

certainly not the RAF!

sure they got the tempest but it was quite expensive as a perk and i think a good dora or p51 or la7 etc pilot could give it a real hard time and with no risk of the huge loss of perks.

what have the RAF fans had in all this time? A spitfireIX. An excellent aircraft sure but guys it is a 1942-43 plane!!
So we get sick of it a bit. fair enough but its because the damn thing is a good aircraft.

The spitfire IVX is a superb aircraft. It will probably become the top plane in terms of performance(?).BUT why does it get peked when all other tastes(LW,USAAF,VVS etc) are catered for with FREE rides?
I think it would be extremely unfair on the RAF fans to perk it before its even had a chance to show its stuff in the MA.
You find you cant beat it in your favourite ride? you can handle the spit IX most of the time right? but you dont want to lose your top position to spit IVX flyers? WELL TOO BAD!!!

IF its the best plane of 1944-45 then so be it. I personally wont be flying it much if at all after ive tried it out as im an LW fan.That doesnt give me or you guys the right to declare it perk ride just because we choose not to fly it.

IF it starts to see usage on the scale of the F4uc (25-30% of ma) then GO AHEAD perk it for a SIMILAR cost.

If it was a low production run/rare aircraft like the Ta152,arado,me262,F4uc(only 200 or so) then GO AHEAD perk it but it wasnt was it?

all i see here is players deciding it should be perked because it will out perform their chosen ride or countries best planes.Theres no other basis for arguement.It hasnt pissed everyone off with overuse,its not a rare aircraft so why perk it?

I say give it its place as top dog for a while.

or are ye all Skeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeered?

i think its cool that a new spit is arriving to match the era of the other planes.I dont think its right YET to perk it.

[BenDover]

wow!! i can feel the heat from here!:D

[J_A_B]

"Who out of all the countries/sides in the AH war has had the crown of basically the best performing NON PERKED aircraft for the longest ? "

Well, I'd have to say the British with the Spit 9.   It is, after all, frequently the most common plane encountered each tour.  

I have yet to see people whining on these boards about "Too many Doras".  I see Spit whines all the time.  How can you say the RAF doesn't have a competative fighter, yet they have what is commonly the most-used plane in the game?   You should re-word your statement to say "the RAF planeset doesn't have a plane which fits MY flying style".

What year a plane was made or what country it flew for or how many were built doesn't matter to the AH MA anyway.  It's interesting trivia, nothing more.  I too am glad to see the Spit 14 making its way into AH.  But not because it's British (in AH it's rook, knight, or bishop), not because it was made in 1944 (this is 2002), and not because a lot were made (you have unlimited production in the MA).  I'm glad to see it because a lot of guys have been asking for it for a long time.    

HTC will decide whether it needs to be perked.  

J_A_B

[hazed-]

JAB if you count furballing as the top type then yes spit is probably ONE of the best but to say it is THE best performing is total bs. its not competative in fast late war matchups unless the pilot of the late war planes flies the spits fight.

1 on 1 i could beat a spit with P51d dora or f4uc by simply employing bnz tactics and not turning.

You try to imply i want it non perked for my own agenda because im british or something? Like i said I fly LW 99% of the time in MA and until the dora came along the plane everyone who flew LW most disliked was the P51D because it could engage and disengage at will. When the dora arrived we had the aircraft to give them a run for their money.what have the raf guys had to counter the p51d,dora or p38s high alt performance and speed?

I dont want to fly the spit14 other than to try it out and i dont mind having aircraft that are faster than the dora anyhow.You seem to be accusing me of having some sort of reason or personal agenda when what I am actually saying is I expect it to be better than the dora(my chosen ride) but unless it floods the arena it shouldnt be perked.Im sure it will flood the arena like every other new plane for a while and im guessing i will get sick of seeing it but that is no reason for it to be perked.

Your reasons for wanting it perked are?

hmm lemme guess, you fly p38s or p51ds?

Game of 'P51D aces high' anyone?

[hazed-]

Originally posted by J_A_B
What year a plane was made or what country it flew for or how many were built doesn't matter to the AH MA anyway.  It's interesting trivia, nothing more.  I too am glad to see the Spit 14 making its way into AH.  But not because it's British (in AH it's rook, knight, or bishop), not because it was made in 1944 (this is 2002), and not because a lot were made (you have unlimited production in the MA).  I'm glad to see it because a lot of guys have been asking for it for a long time.    

HTC will decide whether it needs to be perked.  

J_A_B

ok J_A_B why have the tempest, arado , me262, ta152 and every other plane been perked then?

these were all perked because HTC felt they would upset the 'ballance' of the arena.or in the case of the F4uc they were being used so much that they took up 30% of the flying being done.
what is the aircraft thats accepted as the top aircraft but without upestting the ballance? the one all these are rated against to decide their impact? where is the perk line/'ballanc' line drawn and for what reasons?

[Replicant]

Hazed for a very good honest reply and I know you're a LW fan!  I totally agree with you.  The RAF should be given a free late war and very capable plane that is roughly equal to the likes of the D9, P51D, La7 etc.  Why?  The Tempest is far too expensive and is it really that better than the La7?  I fly the Typhoon and I will continue to do so no matter what plane they release.  I fly the Seafire from CVs but rarely fly the Spit IX.

So, the Spit IX is that popular?  Well it's a very good newbie plane indeed.  It can turn but there are better turn fighters.  When people see the icon 'SPIT' do they automatically think it's a Spit IX?  Remember we do have the Spit I, Spit V and the Seafire.  I prefer the Seafire personally.

Anyway, if the Spit 14 is introduced will that mean everyone flying the La7, N1K2, 190-D9, P51D will suddenly swap to the Spit 14?  Well if anyone is really fond of their personal ride then no, but if others who simply want to fly one of the best planes then yes, perhaps.  It will require a different flying approach than the current Spits so I think you'll see it in different kinda of engagements.

To all those who want it perked.... remember when the Mosquito, the Hurricane IIC and even the IL2 were introduced, some wanted all of those planes perked!  Crazy!  Let's introduce it as a non-perk and if it is overwhelming the MA then yes, perk it, but please give it a chance!

36 RAF Squadrons flew the Spit 14, which is more than those that flew the Typhoon and the Tempest.

Regards

NEXX

[thrila]

*holds hands with spit groupies*

"Aaaaaall weee are saaaaying is give spits a chaaance..."

[J_A_B]

To answer your earlier post first:   No, I'm not accusing you of having any sort of secret agenda.  I'm just suggesting that you're not looking at every side of this issue.

Example, you said:

"its not competative in fast late war matchups unless the pilot of the late war planes flies the spits fight.   1 on 1 i could beat a spit with P51d dora or f4uc by simply employing bnz tactics and not turning. "

Here is the problem in your argument--you say that the Spit 9 is not competative unless the guy in the BnZ ride messes up.  Yet, your argument is based on the opposite and equally true idea that in order to win, the 190 or P-51 needs the Spit to mess up.  

By this line of thought, I can easily say "1 on 1 I can beat a P-51 or Dora with a Spit 9 simply by employing angles tactics and not allowing him to rope me".  

So how is the Spit 9 so inferior?  In either case, the winner requires the loser to fight to the winner's advantage.  The assumption--the mistake--is the belief that one way of fighting (BnZ) is superior to the other (TnB).  This is a matter of personal opinion only.  

Now, on to your second post:

"what is the aircraft thats accepted as the top aircraft but without upestting the ballance? the one all these are rated against to decide their impact? where is the perk line drawn and for what reasons?"

Good questions.  The "top aircraft" is dependent on what you fly.  As a P-51 driver I consider the LA7 to be the top dog.  However, when I fly an F6F I consider the Spit 9 to be the most dangerous fighter.  If I'm on the deck in a N1K2 I worry most about Spit 5's and Zekes....but if I'm 30K in a F4U then my main fears are P-51B's and 190D-9's.

As for where the perk line is drawn.....I honestly can't answer that.  Neither can you.  Only HTC can answer that.   Judging by the F4U-1C, they perk planes which will dominate airplane usage in the arena (over 20% usage was the figure for the C-hog).

My OWN opinion on whether the Spit 14 will be perked?  I figure HTC will make the right choice  

Thanks for the good discussion.  

J_A_B

[hazed-]

Originally posted by J_A_B


"its not competative in fast late war matchups unless the pilot of the late war planes flies the spits fight.   1 on 1 i could beat a spit with P51d dora or f4uc by simply employing bnz tactics and not turning. "

Here is the problem in your argument--you say that the Spit 9 is not competative unless the guy in the BnZ ride messes up.  Yet, your argument is based on the opposite and equally true idea that in order to win, the 190 or P-51 needs the Spit to mess up.  

By this line of thought, I can easily say "1 on 1 I can beat a P-51 or Dora with a Spit 9 simply by employing angles tactics and not allowing him to rope me".  

So how is the Spit 9 so inferior?  In either case, the winner requires the loser to fight to the winner's advantage.  The assumption--the mistake--is the belief that one way of fighting (BnZ) is superior to the other (TnB).  This is a matter of personal opinion only.  
 

I understand what you are saying here J_A_B but i feel i must point out the flaw in this arguement also.The spit pilot cant escape (skills being equal) unless the p51b or dora runs out of fuel. At any time,however, as a p51 or dora pilot i can disengage and run as long as i dont make the mistake of slowing down before i try to diengage.Now admitedly 7 out of 10 fights in MA are not at this knife edge level(ie needing to really choose your moments) but i have fought spits often and when i engage with alt advantage i can attack once or twice(admitedly hard snap shots because they can avoid them easily) and if it looks like its going wrong i dive and run or even level and wep and run..ahem egress . taking it the other way a spit with alt is indeed very dangerous but a quick jink and power dive followed by extention will usualy get you out of harms way.

what will we do with the new spit14? I dont know yet but we should have fun finding it out right? btw dont get me wrong here, I doubt ill enjoy this much! but Im willing to give up some of the dominance ive enjoyed in the dora. Who knows perhaps we will all become better pilots for it?.

Originally posted by J_A_B


hazed:"what is the aircraft thats accepted as the top aircraft but without upestting the ballance? the one all these are rated against to decide their impact? where is the perk line drawn and for what reasons?"

Good questions.  The "top aircraft" is dependent on what you fly.  As a P-51 driver I consider the LA7 to be the top dog.  However, when I fly an F6F I consider the Spit 9 to be the most dangerous fighter.  If I'm on the deck in a N1K2 I worry most about Spit 5's and Zekes....but if I'm 30K in a F4U then my main fears are P-51B's and 190D-9's.

I think youre close to hitting the nail right on the head here.Its all about where each plane performs.but after reading more about the spitfire 14 it was in service in january 1944 and was exceptionally fast at 450mph at 26,000 feet this means its approximatly 14mph faster than the P51d (436mph at 25,000feet)which isnt that great a leap from the extra speed the p51d has enjoyed for so long in AH. The P51D is 11mph faster than the 190d9 (425mph) which is 1mph faster than the F4ud (424mph)which is 14mph faster than the p38L (415mph) and on it goes. What HTC have to decide i guess is if there is ever going to be a faster plane than these that isnt perked.

As the F4U-4 is perked and its top speed is (446mph) my guess is HTC will indeed perk the spit14 but the spit 14 was in combat for almost 18 months(european theatre) whereas the f4u4 was only produced in the closeing stages of the war.This means the P51 keeps the top speed crown for non perkies.Is it really fair after all this time?
couldnt we have at least 1 tour with a new 'king' ?

(ps tempestV 435mph at 18k)

btw it is a good discussion

[Karnak]

Ouch.  This is getting ugly.

I think its clear, based on Spitfire Mk IX numbers, that an unperked Spitfire Mk XIV would quickly imbalance the MA.  Because I feel that is clear, I think that it must be perked, even though it is my favorite aircraft.

The question that I have is, how much does it need to be perked at?

At 60-70 points I will only fly it very, very rarely as it won't be terribly fun and I simply don't have enough points to bankroll many of them.

At 20-30 points it wouldn't hurt so badly to lose that I couldn't have fun with it.

I personally think that all perk planes are too expensive, save the F4U-1C (which is also blessed with a non-perk icon and thus doesn't summon an instant gangbang to itself).  The Me262 can kind of make do with its 200 point price simply because its performance is so far beyond anything elses, but even the Me262 costs too much in my opinion.

The Tempest and F4U-4 are particularly overpriced for their performance.  The Ta152H-1 is too costly, but I do question how many would be flown even if the price were lowered to F4U-1C levels.  There just doesn't seem to be much interest in that aircraft.

How often do you see P-51Ds, La-7s, Bf109G-10s, Fw190D-9s and Typhoons?  How often do you see F4U-4s, Tempests and Ta152H-1s?  In my case the answers would be: "Everytime I log on" and "Never".

Do these aircraft actually perform that much better that they should be so rare and be gangbanged whenever one does make an appearance?

I don't think so.

Do they need to be controled and limited in any way whatsoever?

I think they do, I just think that they are too controled right now.

[J_A_B]

"what will we do with the new spit14? I dont know yet but we should have fun finding it out right? btw dont get me wrong here, I doubt ill enjoy this much! "

Indeed, nothing wrong with trying it out.  

My point about the speed of aircraft was made based on the AH MA, not based on reality.   Basically, speed in AH is only of import to those of us--like me and you--who like to live.   There's a lot of guys who much prefer going down fighting and not bothering to land; for this group that extra speed is useless.  You're right, the Spit can't escape.....but chances are, the guy in the Spit doesn't care about escaping.   One of the interesting effects about the "life after death" nature of online gaming.

Karnak--not getting ugly at all; in fact this IMO is one of the better debates I've seen here in awhile  

J_A_B

[Karnak]

J_A_B,

Count me as one of the Spit pilots who flies to live.  However, the Spit IX can't do it reliable and neither will the Spit XIV.  The Spit IX is too slow and the Spit XIV will have a "Spit14" icon which says "Come and gangbang me with your free fighters that are faster than my perk fighter".

That is the unfortuante truth for us Spit pilots that fly to live.

[J_A_B]

"Count me as one of the Spit pilots who flies to live. However, the Spit IX can't do it reliable "

Sure it can.  It's not as good at it as the P-51 or 190D-9 is, but it can still be a survivable ride.  Despite this, I find it unlikely that most Spit pilots are overly concerned with landing their flights.  It's sort of like although you CAN TnB in a FW-190, few pilots choose to do so because a Spit or N1K2 or F6F is better suited to the task.

Which is good.  AH would get very boring, very fast if EVERYONE wanted to always live.  

Still, the Spit 9 isn't a deathtrap if you WANT to fly it to live.  The hardest part, I think, is you have to remember "Don't fly it like a Spit".  Don't get low and slow on the deck, don't take off from capped bases, don't turnfight people when other enemies might arrive and jump you.  Fly the Spit like you would a P-51D or 190 and it can bring you home more often than not.  The one thing it lacks is the "get out of jail free" effect that having a high top speed brings.  If you make a mistake in a Spit9, then you're stuck with it.  So the lesson is clear--if you want to live in a Spit 9, be very careful and don't make an error in judgement.

The thing is, if you choose to fly the Spit like you would a P-51 or D-9, then why fly a Spit 9 at all (aside from sentimental reasons)?  If you're not using that turning ability and low-speed handling, then you're not using the Spit's main advantages.  And this is where the comments of "The 1942 Spit 9 sucks" begin.  It's not that it REALLY sucks, it's that it sucks for the way some people want to fly it.  Just as a dedicated TnB pilot will invariably say the 190 or P51 "sucks".

I don't know what to tell you Karnak, because from your perspective you're 100% right--for the way you want to fly, the Spit 9 simply isn't as good as the Dora or P51.  Believe me though, I feel your frustration.  I fly the 51 for the same reason you take the Spit--sentimental value.  I like to fly at low altitudes, where the LA7 is utterly superior to me.   And on some days, I really do feel like the P-51 sucks (usually when I have an LA7 bearing down on me).   I guess I just remind myself that it's my choice to fly the 51 in a way that works against its strengths.    It's Fate, I suppose, that leads us to "needing" to use an airplane which doesn't really suit the way we like to play.

I re-read this post, hope it doesn't offend.  I'm just trying to offer up some more discussion here  

J_A_B

[Karnak]

J_A_B,

I don't turn with it in slow fights on the deck.  I don't take off from capped bases either.

I prefer the Mosquito because it is more survivable.


You say, don't get low and slow when there is a possiblitiy of a faster fighter arriving above you.  Well, in the Spit IX it doesn't matter if you are turning or not.  If a P-51D, Fw190D-9, La-7, Typhoon, Yak-9U, P-47D, P-38L or Bf109G-10 arrives above you and fights smart, the Spit IX is dead.  It can't get away.  It has to break turn to survive, which kills its speed.  It can survive for a while by converting altitude and speed into break turns, but eventually its going to run out of energy.  Then it dies.

I have had some very successful flights in the Spit IX that I landed.  These were typically notable for the fact that no higher, faster fighter arrived to kill me.  As long as I was on top, I lived.  Dive down, kill (or try to kill at least) then zoom climb back up.  Repeat until out of ammo or low on fuel, then fly home.  If a fast high fighter shows up, hope it either doesn't see me or that the pilot doesn't know how to use his fighter, otherwise I'm dead.  I'm no NathBDP or Citabria.