Attack on Iraq Imminent

[Udie]

Originally posted by babek-
To create the state of Israel after WW2 was a terrible fault.

It causes much hate - even between people and nations who didnt knew each other before in their history.

One of the results of this stupid policy was the also very stupid and barbaric attack against the WTC by arabs against americans - two nations who didnt know each other 50 years ago.
But only half a century after the creation of Israel enough arab fanatics were produced to make such a devestating terroristic suicide attack against US-americans.

The so called war against terrorism cant have any success. Even if the anti-terrorism-nations conquer and occupy or install a puppet regime in Iraq, Iran, Korea and all the other nations who are called terroristic they will not be able to stop a single terroristic counterattack.
In contrary: They will only produce the next generation of fanatics who are ready to sacrifice themself for bigger suicide attacks.

Just see what happens in these days in Israel: Under the mad dog Sharon who sends out his military for new nazi-like massacres against the palestines - he is not able to avoid the next suicide terror-attack of a palestine fanatic.

The solution can only be done by politicians and surely not by military.

Even if the military wins 1000 battles - they cant win the war.

So its not important when or if the USA attacks Iraq - it will bring nothing and surely it will not reduce terrorism.

 gee you're right.  Only if hitler would have had a few more years we wouldn't have this problem huh?

[babek-]

An interesting question...

60 years ago the civilized world stopped Hitler and his terrorism.

Today it does nothing to stop the Hitler-like Sharon and his terrorism.

So we know results of what happened after a Hitler-like monster was stopped and now could wait and see what happens when a Hitler-like monster could act like Sharon wants...

[Ping]

Originally posted by Voss


Iraq is on the side of terrorism and thus oppose us in the fight against terrorism. Iraq will be a great first step toward eliminating terrorism.  You could name a dozen countries engaged in the same sort of support as Iraq.

 And there lies the problem, The World leaders have not agreed to a strict definition of Terrorism. No one has been willing to tackle that salamanderly porcupine yet.
 One mans Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Whos definition do we go by?
 Perhaps before declaring a war on terrorism.....we should all go with the same definition of it. If I remember correctly, The Arab league asked that very same thing, and it makes sense.
 And no double standards. Pakistan has terrorist training camps, why are they allies in the war? Should not ZERO tolerance apply here?

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by babek-
An interesting question...

60 years ago the civilized world stopped Hitler and his terrorism.

Today it does nothing to stop the Hitler-like Sharon and his terrorism.

So we know results of what happened after a Hitler-like monster was stopped and now could wait and see what happens when a Hitler-like monster could act like Sharon wants...

While I don't agree with Babek here, I do award him two points for the Reversal. Well met indeed.

-Sikboy

[Udie]

Originally posted by babek-
An interesting question...

60 years ago the civilized world stopped Hitler and his terrorism.

Today it does nothing to stop the Hitler-like Sharon and his terrorism.

So we know results of what happened after a Hitler-like monster was stopped and now could wait and see what happens when a Hitler-like monster could act like Sharon wants...

 You could be right.  But why is it we only see Isreali's military hitting military targets? (yes the house of a terrorist is a military target IMO)  Then on the other hand almost every day another palestinian blows himself up taking inocents with him?  20 just yesterday with over 100 wounded.  They'd have a diddlying state by now if they'd stop acting like barbarians. They were >< that freaking close in the 90's only they wouldn't accept a state called Isreal.

 And still the memory is there of those wonderful palestinians dancing in the street on 9/11.  And still no one talks of Jordan Syria and Egypt who are the ones responsible for the position palestinians find themselves in today. They are using palestine as a pawn.  They say they want peace yet they don't even let Arafat speak to the arab conference.  They wan't their diddlying land back that they lost in '67 they could care less about palestine.

 I don't even know why I got mixed up in this fight again. I'm begining to realize that nothing is going to happen until they get new leaders over there on both sides.


side note,


Why is it they can co-exist here in the USA?

[weazel]

Probably because we don't pack arabs into squalid little camps and deny them basic human rights.

[Vector]

Originally posted by babek-
To create the state of Israel after WW2 was a terrible fault.

I dunno about it being terrible fault, but United Nations could have formed the Jewish State in more co-operation with surrounding countries, if possible.


HORTLUND wrote:
You have your three typical groups of palestinian "freedom fighters", first there are the stoneheads. They take to the streets throwing rocks at Israeli police and military, now there is a smart move right there, "lets see, I'll throw this big rock at that tank, that'll scare them off". Then you have the second group, strapping bombs on themselves to take out busses, cars and airplanes filled with people. They just want to kill civilians, as many as possible. Then you have a third group who snipes at 10 months old babies, drive their busses into busstops crowded with people or lay outside jewish settlements at night sniping at lit windows

I would add the 4th group with mortars and katjusha rocket launchers attacking from Lebanon. I know that these groups don't get much "TV-time", but they are there.

-vector

[Toad]

I love threads about the Iraqi threat to world peace due to weapons of mass destruction.

I am in the right thread, aren't I?

[Ping]

Right thread, wrong topic. Got Hijacked long time ago

[Ping]

On the topic of, threat to world peace due to weapons of mass destruction. I thought the USA and USSR had taken care of that quite handily by ensuring that there was enough to wipe out the earth several times over. MADD.

[Dowding]

I'd a 5th group to your list Hortlund -

Those that use Semtex, bought by sympathetic Americans from Libya, place it in several rubbish bins along a high street in a busy town and then blow up one of the bins. Each of the other bins has a delay set into their timer so that it explodes as the crowd (panicked by first explosion) runs by, thereby increasing the carnage.

Or how about those that use a simple car bomb in another busy high street, killing nearly 40 people and injuring 100s more yet are not declared by the US to be an illegal organisation until 3 years after the event and six months before Sept. 11th, 2001.

One man's terrorist really is another man's freedom fighter.

[babek-]

Originally posted by Udie


 You could be right.  But why is it we only see Isreali's military hitting military targets? (yes the house of a terrorist is a military target IMO)  Then on the other hand almost every day another palestinian blows himself up taking inocents with him?  20 just yesterday with over 100 wounded.  They'd have a diddlying state by now if they'd stop acting like barbarians. They were >< that freaking close in the 90's only they wouldn't accept a state called Isreal.

 And still the memory is there of those wonderful palestinians dancing in the street on 9/11.  And still no one talks of Jordan Syria and Egypt who are the ones responsible for the position palestinians find themselves in today. They are using palestine as a pawn.  They say they want peace yet they don't even let Arafat speak to the arab conference.  They wan't their diddlying land back that they lost in '67 they could care less about palestine.

 I don't even know why I got mixed up in this fight again. I'm begining to realize that nothing is going to happen until they get new leaders over there on both sides.


side note,


Why is it they can co-exist here in the USA?

1. Military targets ?
Surely not. Only few of the targets were military targets. The rest of the civilian infrastructure which has been teared down by the israeli military mob were buildings like schools, police stations or simple houses of people.

To call these "military targets" is like to call the Nazi terror operations in the occupied territories in WW2 "legitime police actions".

2. Dont misunderstand me: I also condemn the terroristic actions of the palestines. But it must beallowed to ask the question how these people became so desperate and fanatic that they are willing to blow themself up - just in the hope to take as much Israelis with them as possible.

Maybe you are right - maybe the palestines have become barbarians. But I say that they were transdormed to mad fanatics by israeli mad fanatics like Sharon.

There are surely intelligent and peaceful palestinians and israelis. But in the actual heated situation they have no chance to act - especially when the superpower USA continues to ignore the daily israeli terrorism and only condemn the terrorism of the palestines.

3. The dancing palestines.
Does it surprise you that in german TV they showed pictures of dancing south americans, when they heared about the terrorist act of the WTC-massacre ?

In the whole world there are stupid people who start to dance only because innocents die.

But to conclude that all palestines or arabs were happy when the WTC was destroyed is nothing more than a primitive propaganda act.

Every normal human being - and I consider that the most people in this world of ALL nations, religions and races are ment by this definition - were shocked and ashamed when they heared about this waste of lifes.

4. Why they coexiste in the USA?
This was the most impressive question, because it has the solution of the whole problem within.

People just want to live - they want to see their children live under safe circumstances and to get some happiness in life.

As long as they are not manipulated and thrown in a circle of hate this concept works.

The IRA/NorthIreland conflict showed us, how hate brought white christians to hate each others and to kill themself.
The ETA conflict shows similiar problems in Spain.
The PKK conflict those of the Kurds in Turkey.
The hate between Serbs/Bosnians/Croatians in x-Yugoslavia was also escalated by Milosevic.

And so on...

The Israeli / Palestine conflict is a special case in this endless row of stupid conflicts, because  whole generations in this regions have only learned pain (by personal losses) and hate.

With every day it becomes more difficult to stop this circle of violence.

And military actions could do nothing to stop this circle - in contrary - they just produce new hate and pain and wish for revenge.


To ignore the open israeli terrorism is in my opinion the worst mistake which could be made.

I like the idea to fight terrorism in the whole world very much.
But then you have to fight ALL the terrorism and terroristic regime.

And the actual israeli government and policy is definitivly as terroristic as the policy of Saddamīs or Milosevicīs was.

[Udie]

Originally posted by weazel
Probably because we don't pack arabs into squalid little camps and deny them basic human rights.

 [hehehe you would have gotten a kick out of the paragraph I just erased - trying to be civil but I'm real pissed at life today]

 I'm not talking about us weaz I'm talking about Jews here and Arabs here.  As long as I can remember, about 26 years, I can remember Palestinians blowing up or killing Isreali's.  Yeah Isreal keeps them in camps.  What else are they supposed to do?!?!?!?!  Most of them want Isreal dead.  Isreal is defending itself as best as they can.  How about the refugees that have liven in Lebenon for 20+ years?  They aren't given the same rights as lebanese.  Yet they don't go around killing those arabs.  What about the Isreali Arabs?  They are Isreali and I believe some even hold public office.  They need to stop living in the past and think about the future.  What ever either side has done to the other needs to be forgiven (yeah right!) and these people need to learn how to live together.  I know that's real nieve,  BUT nothing will happen as long as they keep sending terrorist to kill Isreali citizens, that's a basic fact.

 This next question is serious weazel, not one of my usual knee jerk pissed off trying to make you look bad questions, I really want to know.  Do you support the suicide bombers? They are what's driving this hole thing now and keeping themselves from formal statehood. There is enough world wide support for the Palestinian state for Isreal have to concede.  But as long as they are sending in brainwashed idiots with bombs strapped to thier bodies to blow up crowded hotels full of Jewish people celebrating pass over Isreal will be able to use self defence to keep them down, you'd think they'd learn this.  Personaly to me Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Yes Sir Arafat and anybody who'd strap a bomb to themselves and kill inocent people (or anybody who would help them) are terrorist and are  linked by the hip to Osama Bin Laden and they are the enemies of my country even if Bush is too much of a popsicle to say that.I tell you who I really feal sorry for.  It's the Palestinian people who do want peace with Isreal. The ones sitting there wanting the terror to stop. The ones controled by the terrorist dictator Arafat.


  Damn there's that memory of them dancing in the streets on 9-11 again.  :mad:I can't tell you how pissed that makes me.  I won't type what it makes me want to do or want Isreal to do.  Unenlightened moment I guess. And you call the Isrealis animals.....


ahhhhhh better stop before I get all worked up and start a fight with you again  I like it better being able to laugh at your jokes.

[Ping]

Very Good post babek-
 With every violent response, the cycle of hate and violence is perpetuated.

[weazel]

Do you support the suicide bombers? They are what's driving this hole thing now and keeping themselves from formal statehood.

Hell no, of course not...but by the same token I cannot support what the Israelies do either.

Nor do i support a government that exacerbates the situation by arming the Israelies to the teeth so they can kill rock throwing children.....our government.

If we truly are going to wage war on terrorism it must be even handed...and that means Israel should go on "The List" too, otherwise we expose ourselves as hypocrites.

The only real solution IMO is to let them wipe each other out, neither side is willing to compromise on the basic issues that cause the problems.

At any rate it's wayyyyyyy past time for the US government to "kick the dust from their feet", our relationship with Israel is not only one sided but counter-productive to Americas best interests.