Author Topic: Will you defend palestinians...  (Read 1903 times)

Offline straffo

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Will you defend palestinians...
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2002, 01:35:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furious
Straffo,

I was kinda cheating by including the French as one of the nations the U.S. has been at war with.  I was referring to the French & Indian war and it occurred prior to independence.


F.


rotfl ;)

It puzzled me enought to search a bit on this topic without finding anything than some (I don't now if it's the correct expression) "chicken game" and diplomatic agitation :)

Offline straffo

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« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2002, 01:45:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan

But I guess thats a bit much to expect from 2 super powers with better equipment, supplies and a clearly better defensive position.


(I'm only speaking of France)

Better equipement ???

On paper perhaps but crew were not trained enought.
And the better equipement was not availlable in number.
Plus the HQ guy were thinking of another trench war not blitzkrieg ... even if the concept was formulated and tested in the early 30's by an unknown General called de Gaulle...

IMO would have France and BEF invade Germany when the german army was busy in Poland things should have got a complete different outcome.

Btw you have to know that the french population was very reluctant to enter war ,the scar of WWI were still open :(

And french people were not made ready to war by huge propaganda preasure like the german.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2002, 12:18:30 PM »
OK Wotan, I do not care a whit what your ideologies are, as long as we all stick to the facts.

I did find something interesting...

Quote
"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."
 
-- Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937

 "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not"

-- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to  
Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946


"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
-- Delegate of Saudi Arabia to the  
United Nations Security Council, 1956,


Now I'm not so naive to not see this as Isreali propoganda, but even propoganda (the best propoganda) sometimes has a large element of truth. Basically what this site was saying is that there was no "Palistinian national movement" prior to the 1967 war. In other words, the Palestinians didn't care about having a homeland when they were occupied by Jordan.

So is the Palistinian Nation a concoction of Arafat to try to grab power from a vacuum?

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2002, 02:14:48 PM »
A question to Wotan.
Where did you get the idea that "goy" means "kettle" ?
I asked about it from people that speak hebrew and they told me "goy" means "nation".Kind of like all other nations.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2002, 08:33:43 PM »
1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

2. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."

3. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

4. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

5. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

6. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."

7. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."

8. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."


I never said "goy" translated directy to "cattle" (not kettle) It does translate to Nation but its a term used to seperate jews from non-jews.


  The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.  2000.
 
goy
 
PRONUNCIATION:   goi
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. goy·im (goim) or goys
Offensive Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew.
ETYMOLOGY: Yiddish, from Hebrew gôy, Jew ignorant of the Jewish religion, non-Jew. See gwy in Appendix II.
OTHER FORMS: goyish —ADJECTIVE



It depends on the context that the word is used. Where btw did I say that "goy" only meant cattle?

It would be like me saying shikse meant unclean meat .......

But this is beside the point of this thread.

Quote
Now I'm not so naive to not see this as Isreali propoganda, but even propoganda (the best propoganda) sometimes has a large element of truth. Basically what this site was saying is that there was no "Palistinian national movement" prior to the 1967 war. In other words, the Palestinians didn't care about having a homeland when they were occupied by Jordan.

So is the Palistinian Nation a concoction of Arafat to try to grab power from a vacuum?


Theres been plenty of discussion on this board about that very same point. I really dont know why you are bringing it up to me. Read Nashwans post and search the board here for more detail.

Whether there was or wasn't a nation called specifically "Palestine" even the Israelis have recognized that the Palestinians have a right to govern themselves. So has the United States and most of the world. So the question is not did it ever exist. It becomes a question of when will it be realized.

They have a right to live free of humiliation. To develope their economy, and provide for themselves.

Again why do you find it necessary to pull an arguement out of thin air. I think you should calm down read what I wrote. I have contended that the Israelis have taken land and property from the Palestinians (the people not the nation)  that was not granted to them by the uno. They did this prior to the '67 war. They have built settlements in the occupied territories after the series of arab wars. They deny any rights to those arabs living in under Israeli law. They have rounded up and put in camps any one then think could be a "terrorist" without a hearing or charges.

So if you look at the whole picture you can see why some folks would decide to fight back.

I do not support my governments support of Israel at any level and I believe we should offer the same type of aid to the palestinians that we historical have given to Israel. Absent that we should leave them (israeli and palestinian) to themselves.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2002, 09:18:48 PM »
Jezz, Wotan, any of those writings less than a thousand years old?

Chit, plenty of bugs under the christian rugs too.

I absolutely agree with you regarding our insane knee jerk national 'hey, they're our pals, whatever they do to the towelheads is kewl' reaction to what israel has done in recent years.. we shoulda cut the miserable lyin toejamheads off last january and suspended all isreali aid, cause frankly their culpability in creating this crisis is writ large in sharons policy book.

Yes.. palestine deserves and requires recognition as a state, and we should support it as enthusiasticly as we supported isreal when they became a state.

unfortunately, regardless of the cause of the current crisis, the palestinian policy of loading dynamite onto kamakazi bounty earners and dispatching them into isreal ain't doin palestine any fediddlein good at all.

*sigh* it'll wind up a bloody mess... but when it's over, and arafat been hung up by his kaftan and sharon gets pitched out in a 'no confidence' vote for stirrin up the toejam, maybe the next two poindexters in charge will get something done that resembles a 'peace'... or we'll be sampling the radioactivity index on arab oil this time next year.
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2002, 10:01:22 PM »
I believe what we are seeing here is about land -- pure and simple and very calculated on the Israeli side. The Palestinians want a state and the Zionist elements in Israel want the West Bank to transition from the “occupied territories” to "Eretz Israel". There is a clearly defined Zionist ideal of a greater Israel reaching the Jordan River, encompassing biblical Judea and Samaria, and it is no secret that Sharon is a committed Zionist. And, in a practical sense, you have to have some place to put a half million Russian Jewish émigrés with potentially a million more or so on the horizon.

The approach to establish Israel itself, set by early European Zionists like Chaim Weizmann, involved creating a state by diffusion -- allow enough emigration and eventually you have the critical mass on the ground in the region to create a homeland where one wouldn’t exist otherwise. Both the immediate pre and post World War 2 emigration surge dramatically speeded up the process, with David Ben Gurion leading the charge. Looking at the current West Bank situation, you can see the same mechanisms in action. A regular settlement process over decades, with little international concern as long as it’s not too violent or overt, and pretty soon the West Bank is part of Israel and TS for the Palestinians. It almost seems as if Sharon took the Ben Gurion example to heart and decided it’s time to speed up the process. After all, he’s not getting any younger and there’s not much time left to see his Zionist dreams realized and set his place in the national mystique.

The initial provocation began with Sharon’s visit to the contested holy site Al-Haram al-Sharif. I wonder how calculated that event was? Sharon certainly must have known it would lead to some level of violent reaction. Even if it was just a ham-fisted blunder, the definition of “crisis” means both danger and opportunity, and there is certainly opportunity for Israeli Zionists in this crisis particularly after the WTC attack. I’m sure we can all recall, with just a little effort, any number of Israeli provocations during the sporadic quiet periods after the unrest began -- bulldozing some homes in a village or a casual assassination by TOW missile -- that would almost certainly be guaranteed to generate a counter response from Hamas. The same goes for the “no violence” before negotiating conditions where extremist like Hamas, who are likely not under the direct control of Arafat and likely not interested in a peace that recognizes the existence of Israel, would be guaranteed to play into the Israel’s hands. Sharon can therefore proceed as he wishes and continually spin the situation as the victim.

In a nation of over 6 million people, the 250 Israeli dead, while tragic on the personal level, can easily be seen by calculating individuals as a small price to pay to achieve the greater goals of Zionism. In fact, statistically most Israeli’s don’t even know first hand any victim of the terrorist bombings, and in fact likely don’t even know one second hand. Further, maintaining the current state of fear and unrest unifies public support behind Sharon’s leadership (not guaranteed at all, otherwise) and make the “dove” position less tenable, though it very well could back fire for him politically if things stay at the quagmire state.

Toad, as usual you raise some succinct points.  Unfortunately, a contemporary land for peace initiative, while being fair, will likely fall on deaf ears since I doubt Israel’s current leadership wants peace without the eventual likelihood of having most, or at least the best, of the land as well.  Israel might have been serious about land for peace immediately after the Six Day War (though the original offer was limited and on Israel’s terms), but if so then times have certainly changed over the decades of occupation. Yizhak Rabin was getting close to peace for land and we know what happened to him. Barak almost got as close, but Arafat dropped that ball and then Sharon decided to pay his infamous little visit and the rest is history. Some editorial writers have suggested that the UN move in and impose a settlement, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen. Cutting off funding for Israel is likely a pipe dream as well, though people do seem to be asking a few hard questions now about our Middle East policy, both in the media and on the street.

Israel isn’t all that unusual in how it is trying to grow its state. Most posters on this board live in countries where very similar efforts exist in the historical record. Unfortunately, and ironically, the lessons of Nazi Germany that we are compelled to remember also include frowning on the mighty taking land from the weak, as well as the lessons about naked racial genocide. Had Israel been founded 100 years earlier, or even fifty years, then the Palestinian question would likely just be a lamentable historical footnote. Of course, Israel couldn’t have existed then because there were far too few Jews in the region.

A few other asides:

-- As for Israel being a democracy, well, you have to be Jewish for that to apply. A theocracy is the more correct definition I believe.

-- IMO the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is off base. A better comparison would be between Israel and apartheid South Africa or the Indian Wars of the Old West. However, the process of “non-precise” retaliation (I don’t believe there are sniper scopes on 155 howitzers) is clearly for intimidation purposes rather than an honest attempt to target legitimate individuals. Much like the Nazi policy of local retribution in response to partisan activities. There seems to be a disconnect, though, in many people’s understanding of the similarities between an individual strapping a bomb on his or her body and blowing up civilians to intimidate and another individual firing a howitzer at a village and blowing up civilians to intimidate. Frankly, it confuses me. If the Israelis are truly making an effort to be precise in their targeting then there has to be an extreme failure somewhere, because you don’t kill far more civilians fighting terrorism than the terrorists kill in return. The death toll is still about 900 Palestinians to 250 Israelis since the unrest began. If you just look at the latest and most intense terrorist campaign, the Israelis are still ahead by about 10 during the same period.

-- There are elements on both sides driven by feelings of religious hatred/superiority. Hamas seems to fall into this category, as do the ultra-orthodox Jews who describe the Palestinians in very Nazi-like rhetoric (animals, subhuman, etc. well before the current problems flared up). For perspective, one of these ultra-orthodox Jewish leaders recently said that the European Jews deserved the holocaust because they had become religiously soft and secular -- how very Bin Laden like.

-- Are all terrorists the same? I don’t believe Arafat falls in the extremist category, being a “statehood terrorist” in the same vein as Menachem Begin or Yitzhak Shamir. If anything, the Zionist groups like the Stern Gang and Irgon helped establish that a campaign of terrorism can be very useful in creating a state. IMO it’s very likely that Arafat would accept a reasonable live and let live agreement that offered the Palestinians more than just a token state with continual servitude to the Israeli masters. It’s hard to say if he has any real control over other organizations like Hamas, which is a fundamentalist terrorist organization funded and controlled by the same elements that supported Bin Laden in a drive for a broadly regional overthrow of secular, moderate governments.

-- Hangtime, I have generally agreed with your position that the terrorist attacks fail to do the Palestinians any good. Lately though... would anybody even be paying attention to the plight of the Palestinians without those attacks or would the world turn around some day after the millionth Jewish settler established the final foothold in Judea and say: "oh my, nothing we can do about a homeland now."

Further, does Hamas really care for, represent or act in the best interests of the Palestinians? In a black and white world the palestinian people, Arafat and Hamas are all the same, just as Israelis are all of one mind. It's really a world of grey with different players and groups having different objectives and trying real hard to make sure the message is black and white to achieve their PR goals.

The Israelis didn't dance in the streets after the WTC but rest assured there were some who saw that as a very positive development for their strategic goals. There are also Israelis who don't care about the West bank, and even support a far more democratic and secular state, and even American Jews who protest Israel's actions at great social risk within the Jewish community.

Charon
« Last Edit: April 04, 2002, 10:13:06 PM by Charon »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2002, 10:12:45 PM »
Well written and nicely presented Charon.

I believe I did use the words "Pollyanna" and "never happen" in my posts, however.  ;)
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Offline easymo

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« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2002, 10:16:52 PM »
"Lately though... would anybody even be paying attention to the plight of the Palestinians without those attacks"

 I wont speak for hang, of course.  But I've been hearing about the Palestinians since the 60's.  My opinion of those dip toejams has not changed once in 3 decades.  Its just more of the same. Terrorism has never worked.  And we can never let it work, at any cost.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2002, 10:19:45 PM »
DOH! of course Toad. I think I knew that when I started developing the post about four hours ago :) All that fact checking can be a squeak.

Charon

Offline Charon

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« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2002, 10:26:47 PM »
Quote
I wont speak for hang, of course. But I've been hearing about the Palestinians since the 60's. My opinion of those dip toejams has not changed once in 3 decades. Its just more of the same. Terrorism has never worked. And we can never let it work, at any cost.



Menachem Begin might disagree with you Easymo. There is a brutal picture in a book I have showing two British soldiers strung up by their necks in tree by Zionist terrorists circa 1947. Futher, their bodies were booby trapped which caused additional casualities when they were cut down. Then there was the King David hotel bombing, a number of other significant incidents as well as the casual drive by shootings. Terrorism helped get the British out, helped establish the state of Israel and ultimately helped put the refugees on the roads out of their lands according to some.

Charon

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2002, 10:28:32 PM »
Quote
Lately though... would anybody even be paying attention to the plight of the Palestinians without those attacks or would the world turn around some day after the millionth Jewish settler established the final foothold in Judea and say: "oh my, nothing we can do about a homeland now."


Prior to 9/11, it looked to me like Palestinian Statehood was a certainty.. there was a slowly growing groundswell of support here and abroad for the palestinian cause.. hell even the dufus in the whitehouse mentioned palestininan statehood. since the guys a parrot, he musta heard it somewere important.

since 9/11, there's been a lot less sentiment for arab anything, and sharon instantly upped his provocative actions.. sparking the usual knee-jerk arab KKK moronic terrorist moves. *sigh*

Whats gonna happen now??? I dunno. I'm reminded of the circus elephant with diahreha.. they pounded a cork in it's bellybutton so the show could go on.. and promptly forgot about it. A week later, when the cork finally popped; the only thing the surviving eyewitnesses could report was "miles and miles of toejam." Nobody saw the elephant (or the cork) and the guys that pounded it in didn't survive the toejamstorm.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2002, 10:39:56 PM »
Not when I'm having my evening Camomile Tea fer pete's sake!

You know what 18-year-old tea costs? Now it's dripping down the screen. Circus elephant... roflmao!
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #88 on: April 04, 2002, 10:55:56 PM »
Hang, I agree completely. There was even negative Israeli press in the US media. The comment was more of a pondering than anything else about how little attention anyone pays to such issues unless the bodies start piling up.

Still though, I do not really believe the ultimate aims of Hamas and Arafat are the same. Arafat is probably too secular for Hamas anyway in the long run. Hamas is a thorn in Arafat's side that he likely couldn't pluck if he wanted to, and an easy tool for Israellis like Sharon to use to make sure that Arafat's root cause, Palestinian statehood, slips into the background. All the Israeli hawks have to do is make sure they're all painted with the same brush. Here's a good link I came across citing the similarities and differences between the PLO and Hamas, showing why peace and statehood mean different things to each organizations:HAMAS

A quote:

Quote
Speculation is rampant that the group may be altering its focus from Islamic nationalism to the creation of an Islamic society. Whatever their new goals, it is acknowledged that the future of HAMAS lies in the results of the PLO-Israeli peace accords. If the PLO is able to accomplish its goals, it will grow stronger and HAMAS weaker. If, however, the negotiations break down, HAMAS is situated perfectly to challenge the PLO for the Palestinian leadership role. As of this writing, HAMAS and its armed militant wing known as Iz el-Deen, carries out continued bombings (including a large number of suicide bombings), assassinations, and kidnappings of those opposed to its existence. Primary targets are Jewish settlers as they are usually unarmed and traveling in buses. This makes them all the more appealing as they present the greatest opportunity for the infliction of casualties. HAMAS' existence has been complicated slightly by the January 24, 1995 Executive Order, signed by President Clinton which prohibits transactions with the group due to their potential for disrupting the Middle East peace process. includes: Iz el-Deen (al-Qassam) Forces


Charon
« Last Edit: April 04, 2002, 10:59:02 PM by Charon »

Offline easymo

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« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2002, 11:08:39 PM »
I could show you ugly pictures of the results of terror attacks that occurred during the American civil war.  So what. They had nothing to do with the war being won. This can be said of nearly every major conflict.

 The Sanctions, and recognition, that toad has carefully provided elsewhere, are what put Israel on the map.  Not some thug,s.

  If we allow terrorism to work. No one, in any country in the world, will ever be able to feel secure again.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2002, 11:24:28 PM by easymo »