Oh, the horror of the younger generation and its understanding of history

[Slash27]

ok, some of our non-American friends please explain why you generalize us?  " kings of the world" comments and such. why do you feel that its fine to assume how we "all" are but in turn would be offended if i was to do the same?  no,  i am not aiming this at all of you guys who are not American, i just am curious. maybe i just pay attention to the morons too much and just answered my own question. i personally enjoy the interaction with our friends from around the globe and appreciate your views even though i may not like them always.


p.s. i dont disagree with the reviews of the recent WW II flicks, but maybe it will draw some intrest of some the younger generations to take a closer look at this incredible point in our not too distant past. maybe these films will make them want learn the truth behind these events and pass them along. just a thought.

p.s.s.  i need some pilots,  anyone intrested in flying with a disorganized mediocre squad?  

[Replicant]

Originally posted by SKurj
finally got the chance to see Das Boot last weekend... (pc was broke lol)

Great flick! everything I had been told was true...

They did step away from realism briefly in places, but hey, not yer typical Hollywood trash +)


SKurj

Yes, but did you watch it in German with English subtitles?  That's the only way to watch it!!!    Fantastic film indeed, one of my all time favourite war movies.

Regards

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Replicant


Yes, but did you watch it in German with English subtitles?  That's the only way to watch it!!!    Fantastic film indeed, one of my all time favourite war movies.

Regards

...no, unfortunately I did not.  I'm gonna though.  The overdubbed english is "ok" but that redheaded guys voice is COMPLETELY off, really detracted from the film.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Yeah the movie loses 80% of its entertainment when dubbed. See it with the original soundtrack..

Be careful with Caidin's work. He tended not to verify his facts. Arthur W. Heiden, who wrote the letter that motivated Caidin to write FTD, and who actually wrote most of the last chapter, is a friend of mine. The best stuff in FTD is gleaned from the pilots. That story about the P-38 returning to base with a dead pilot, and breaking up over the field, is a highly fictionalized version of the truth. Bob Johnson told me that he found Caidin was constantly trying to sensationalize Johnson's story and he (Johnson) had several heated arguments with Caidin when he found several blatant exaggerations in the first drafts of the manuscript. Caidin was a book factory, like Ambrose is today. In that respect, Caidin did not take time to confirm dubious facts in order to meet deadlines. Read his stuff with care.

Why don't you just say it straight: The guy writes science fiction, don't take him seriously.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Esme
An interesting point is to consider whether, if Germany had succeeded in invading mainand Birtain, Russia would have still been able to fight off the Germans anyway. Given the size of the country and its natural resources, I rather think they would have. They might have take a year or two longer to do it, but I think 1946 would have seen the Red Army in Berlin anyway.  

Mind you, to some extent that depends on what would have happened in North Africa and the Middle and Far East.  Would the US have stepped in to help Britis/Empire forces defend Egypt and use Egypt as a base to conduct raids against Axis-held Europe? Would the Western Alies have been invading Italy  as the Russians started pushing the Germans back into Poland and the Balkan States, leaving Britain the last Axis-held country to be liberated?
 

I have long held this view.............. (re an eventual Russian dominance of Europe had Hitler invaded the UK successfully)

whether the US and UK/Commonwealth remnants could have still staged an invasion of  Italy is interesting.......... I think it would come down to how much of the British Navy and its merchant fleet was lost to the Allies and how the expeditionary forces in North Africa would have survived the period from early 41 to early 43 with no UK based logistical source. (Given the US did not give direct military support until after Pearl)

You have to remember that US political,media and general public opinion was 50/50 if not against assisting the Brits at the end of 1940. In fact at the beginning of BoB the US political and media thought that the UK would loose. The US media had been captured by the wonder of the almost magical German military machine. In fact it was only after Sea lion had been cancelled that by co incidence US media reporters based in London began to report the amazingly high moral of the British people and their conviction to defeat Hitler and his allies. These stories (of a nation determined to fight on alone) began slowly to change the ground swell of US public opinion allowing Roosevelt to to commit military forces to Europe after Pearl.

My View any way

Tilt

[SKurj]

ermm Yes i did watch the subtitled version


SKurj

[Esme]

Aye, Tilt, that's another fascinating aspect of the war, sure enough, and one which I don't a yet know that much about - the state of US public opinion, and what the feeling in the upper political and military circles was like. Although  know very generally that the US was rather isolationist in views prior to Pearl Harbour, I don't know details, and would welcome being pointed at a good souce of info on the subject. What was the US feeling about the long-term possibility of a Europe dominated by Nazi Germany? Aprehensive? Couldn't care less? Something else? I have no idea - I'd very much appreciate being pointed at some good sources on the subject.

Ditto what our Commonwealth Allies might have done had Britain fell.  Would "the British Empire" have continued to fight as such, or would it have fallen apart, and the desire for self-determination in some parts have fought with the desire to fight the Axis to an extent that would have hindered the war effort?

Esme

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Esme
Aye, Tilt,  

Well here are a few but there are many more….. firstly this link will take you to some pages that refer to US public opinion re war in Europe

http://www.gwu.edu/~pad/202/readings/foreign.html

Quote
Opposition to foreign combat.  Contrary to the cliché, wars are not "popular" -- at least not in the U.S. The most popular politicians have been those who promised to do everything possible to keep American boys out of war.



Americans overwhelmingly wanted to stay out of World War II. Gallup polls in 1939 showed that 96% opposed "joining the European war" and declaring war on Germany. When asked if they wanted the United States to keep out of the war even if it would mean Germany would conquer England and France, 77% still said "stay out." To help ensure this, 69% favored "stricter neutrality laws" and 73% liked the idea of requiring the government to call a "national referendum" before a war could be declared. In 1940, on the general question of entry into the war, 86% were in opposition. And, as late as July 1941, an overwhelming 79% still opposed American involvement.
Unquote

In fact FDR was in favour of some intervention and  various US government bodies were both with and against him in this respect…………….. you will see his attempts to change public opinion in the Charlottesville address linked to below………


http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/52.htm

Further reflections on the US isolationist policy is given here……  you can see that government was broadly leading public opinion…… so propaganda was pro intervention…….

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs/m33/m33c4.html

There were non governmental anti interventionist groups one headed by Lindbergh who was a national hero of the time and very pro German……..

http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/index.asp

Of interest would be to look up stuff about Joseph Patrick Kennedy US ambassador to London until his resignation in 1940…..here you see another view from FDR’s own ambassador that Britain would loose against Germany and that isolationism was the only way forward.

An example is here

http://www.ytedk.com/politics.htm

Quote.
Kennedy's ambassadorship coincided with the beginning of World War II in Europe; and throughout his three year tenure, Kennedy argued against American and British involvement in the war. Even as the Nazis rolled into France, Joe expressed his support for Hitler and maintained a position of appeasement toward Germany.
- In May 1940, Winston Churchill was elected British Prime Minister. The rise of Churchill brought an end to appeasement, and hastened Joe's decline. When Kennedy publicly proclaimed that "Democracy is finished in England," Roosevelt called for his resignation.
Unquote

I advise that you research more alone to find and form a view……..these snippets are very “scanty” compared to the wealth of history that can be found when looking. However be ready to find some closed doors………

My View is that the US would not have provided any direct Military aid to Europe in the event of a German invasion of the UK. One major reason for not doing so already was the fear of it being unsuccessful.

In fact it could be argued that subsequent to german invasion of Britain (and after pearl) materiel support to Russia would have been stepped up even further than history shows due to a prospect of linking of the east and west axis powers being one of ulitimate disaster for US interests in general.


Tilt

[Kevin14]

Why do all the British people call it Pearl Harbour? I mean we Americans don't spell your British provinces different from how you spell them, so I'm just wondering why British people don't spell our States by how we spell them, when us Americans spell your provinces how you spell them?

[Sikboy]

Why do all the British people call it Pearl Harbour? I mean we Americans don't spell your British provinces different from how you spell them, so I'm just wondering why British people don't spell our States by how we spell them, when us Americans spell your provinces how you spell them?

Just a guess, but it's because Harbo(u)r is a noun, and the language is common. I've never imagined there was any dissrespect intended. I don't imagine that most Americans would spell it with a "U" if the shoe were on the other foot.

Also, Pearl Harbor isn't a state.

-Sikboy

[Esme]

Many thanks, Tilt! I Will be happily poring over that little lot as tim permits.. :-)

Sikboy is essentially correct.  I didn't even THINK about the spelling, to be honest, and I've never seen it spelt any other way that I can recall.  Whilst I sporadically make attempts to spell Continental place names as per the local language (so Rhein, Koln, Maas, etc rather than Rhine, Cologne, Meuse), first of all clarity can be an issue - so much has been written using English bastardisations of foreign place names that using anything else on the quick can sometimes confuse, although I tend to feel that folk OUGHT to try to learn the proper names.

With American places there is a further problem.  As is the case with any language that is similar, but not identical, to its mother language, the younger language often makes users of the older one wince.  If I moved to America, I would stick with UK words and spellings, no matter what, whereas if I went to live on the Continent, I'd happily learn and speak the local language.

And, aye, I've encountered a few examples of Americans sticking with American spellings even when talking of places in the UK, or even actually livng here. "Boro" instead of "Borough" is a common one. (shrugs...) Human nature - and an ENTIRELY different topic involved there!

Esme

(wondering if many Americans even know what we consider to be provinces within the UK! (smile...) )

[TheHawk]

wow, there are some very interesting ideas here. i only wish this forum was a real time conversation and not a posting. hehe i had lots to say but then either someone said it or i have forgotten. I totally agree with Esme on the problems that Germany faced on invading Britain. Vorticon said that the luftwaffe should level London and then the war would be over. Firstly I dont think we should make fun of Vorticon for his "uninformed" oppinions.  The fact is that we all have them, especially with history. Unless you have read from many different sources will you get a complete and correct oppinion. No one is an idiot because history is often based on scattered facts, rarely is all the info completely known. And we definatly shouldnt generalize about the historical knowledge of someone just because of their age. back to what i was saying. Attacking london was one of the reasons why the Germans were unable to defeat the British. They deverted bomber attacks from strategic British defences (fighter bases, radar posts etc.) and tried to defeat the british by destroying their moral-a tactic that worked well on Madrid durring the spanish civil war. Esme's right on about the many setbacks that the Germans would have faced.


Hangtime
"its pitiful. we get no respect at all for what we did during and after.. our motives are smeared, our efforts after the war ignored. truly pitiful. no wonder lil kids grow up over there thinking we're all toejamheads."

in response to Hangtimes, "uninformed" comment i am wondering what you are looking for in terms of respect? as if the US doesnt get enough respect as it is. people talk of getting their historica knowledge from movies..what about in pearl harbor when that american guy goes to england, shoots down a bunch of Germans and the british...commander (i dont actually know his rank) says something along the lines of "if all americans are like you i pitty anyone who goes to war with them" DO NOT quote me on that cuz i havnt seen if since it was in theatres but it was stupid. that opitimizes that american pride. like one american pilot turns the tide of the war. 1 question though, if we are trying to be logical, why would the british commander be impressed with this american guy, even if he did shoot down a bunch of planes? its not like there werent british aces, and for that matter combat vets who actually have experience, instead of a guy who has never even flown a spitfire.  maybe he could play chicken and scare the pants off some German's though!
the second part of your statement says that your "motives are smeared."  now you are american right? i am wondering how much you actually know about the US entering the war. there were many more factors than just pearl harbor. did you know that the US had isolationist laws. they prevented the US from entering the war despite Roosevelts desires to do so. the main reason that your reputaion was smeared was because America became the world power it is today by prifiting or WW1 and mainly WW2. anyone is going to be mad when they are fighting their tulips off and the US is sitting back raking in the money. The US profited greatly from the war.
also, no one ignores the american effort after the war. at the end of the war there were no other countries capable of lending aid to the war torn nations. many of the former world powers were bankrupt and undoubtedly it would have taken many more years for the recovery process to begin. on the other hand, greed was the force behind the aid. giving money to countries if they spent it on american goods...
you say that little kids think americans are toejam heads. the fact is that people hate americans for many reasons. it is definatly biased and unacceptable for us to have them but nevertheless we do.

SLASH27, you said that you would like to talk more about this topic..i would also, i like to hear both sides of the topic, despite the fact that americans are trying to screw us canadians economically, and many other countries for that matter. its practically neo-imperialism.




AKSWulfe
"So based on the ignorant jibberish you're posting, I could say "all canadians don't know a lick of history?

Who were the red tails? "

who was the commanding officer of fliegercorps X, who frickin cares. just because you know who the red tails are doesnt mean you know anything about history. in the whole scheme of things how important is knowing who the red tails are. I AM CANADIAN and no i dont know who the red tails are.


ahh, well i didnt expect to write that much, i guess i got caught up. if anyone has anything to say about this, and i bet they do, i bet i would if i read it again,-frankly i cant remember what i was talking about at the beginning- you can e-mail me if you have something inteligent to say, otherwise dont. i would be happy to discus it with someone/ppl

[Don]

>>So, I hope that most youths don't think this way..<<

Rip:
I hope that most youths....think

[Don]

>>So, I hope that most youths don't think this way..<<

Rip:
I hope that most youths....think

and....

Learn the names of the capitals of each state
become able to know what the continents are
be able to name the oceans, and say where they are
know the difference between north and south, east and west, and know what direction they are in

And until they can do so they need to:
Keep their eyes and ears open and their mouths shut

[Mushkin1uk]

In response to HANGTIME, learn about what we get taught over here before you start mouthing off about it, no one is disrespected in any way when kids over here are taught about the war, we get straight up facts,as far as im aware,:mad: