Author Topic: Perk/ENV discussions aka. lies, lies and statisics :) (Read 936 times)

Sikboy · « **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2002, 12:45:56 PM »

Wow FD Ski, that's very cool. I thought I wonder how many of us have actually broken out Excel to work with AH stats lol. to some badass work!

-Sikboy

Zigrat · « **Reply #16 on:** April 03, 2002, 12:57:00 PM »

thats a dumb idea tac. a p51b free while 109 f4 costs perks lol

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #17 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:08:59 PM »

DJ, but there is parity between the SpitV and the SpitI.

There isn't any parity between a '44 aircraft and a '40 aircraft... which is my point. Why do we have some '44 aircraft perked while others aren't?

But fine, lets do it based on usage. Or a combination of usage + introduction....

And on top of all that, I'll bet you a box of donuts that if the current overly used rides get perked... that you'll just see some new planes take over as more popular....

But with this in mind, remember parity, we can safely assume these new "more popular rides" won't severly outclass the '40 planes as they do now.

It might not be very fair to you to not be able to fly the fastest plane in the set with the biggest guns, but it's not exactly fair to subject the guys that want to fly the slower planes with the smallest guns to your aforementioned ride without penalties.

Personally, I think what you fly should be reflected in your score and in the perks you earn.

Someone that can maintain a 2.0k/d, 2.0 k/s and .22 k/t in a SpitI deserves a much better score than some easy-mode 3l33t f1g|-|t3r p10l3t in a P51D 10K above the furball.
-SW

fd ski · « **Reply #18 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:20:32 PM »

Guys, you're missing the point.

It's not about partity or fairness.

it's about the very simple question

How do we have the arena in which ALL the planes are avaiable ( within reason - aka - some perks ) yet at this same time, give pilots incentive to fly the lesser aircraft ?

Solve this and you get 100 brownie points.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #19 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:27:45 PM »

Answer: Pay for their online subscription.

90% of the people who fly AH are flying it because they wanna be hotshots ala Top Gun... most of 'em don't even know where the fuel tank is in the plane their flying.

"Big guns, fast... what else could I possibly need?!?"

No matter how much of an incentive you throw around, they just won't care.
-SW

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #20 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:34:34 PM »

Wulfie.. your implication as to what parity means is not possible.

Not even remotely.

You can always argue that "parity" does not exist in the MA. And you will always be able to argue it unless there is just one aircraft available.

A Spit I stands just as much chance against a P-51D as it does against virtually every other aircraft in the MA.... except for maybe 3 other planes. It can't catch it.. but what can it catch? Don't go picking the slowest damn plane to prove a point... its overkill and counter productive.

As far as what to perk? Hmmmm... I think the planes currently perked deserve it... I don't think the planes currently unperked deserve it. You can throw a model year in there if you want to... but when I look at the perk planes I see distinct advantages in some category and often in multiple categories. Wether its cannons or top speed or some combination of both... there is an advantage there. Even the Ta-152 has a distinct advantage via altitude (whether LW likes to admit it or not) and merrits the perking.

The P-51 is faster than many aircraft in the MA, but it rarely enjoys much more than a 1:1 k/d ratio. The La-7 is fast and turns decent, but it has one of the more anemic gun packages available. The Dora only goes fast... it doesn't do much else well. The G-10 climbs and runs well... not much else.

I just don't see these aircraft in the MA and think "OH CRAP!".... and I fly the F6F-5 exclusively. Hell.. the SpitV is perhaps the toughest plane in the MA to engage... but that isn't what is being considered here.

If running away from fights is the main consideration in the MA, then the fast planes deserve to be perked. But it isn't... not even remotely. The low turn-fights are where everything is happening. Most of this thread seems dedicated to eliminating a neusance (those damn planes the turnfighters can't catch) more than creating parity.

AKDejaVu

Rude · « **Reply #21 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:36:56 PM »

I had to call Ronni and ask her how all of this perk stuff worked. I myself, and everyone in our squad, never gives a thought to perks....at least it is never mentioned.

I would like to see the theatre of operations(terrains) and a rps control the usage...in addition, I would like to see the scoring system reflect the usage as well. If ya drive a pony and kill spit1's then you should not score as high point wise as you would flying a spit1 and shootin down Mustangs.

Ahhh crap! I got drawn into this discussion when it has no impact on me enjoying myself...how did that happen???

Shame on all of you:)

Urchin · « **Reply #22 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:38:19 PM »

Guys, I hate to say this, but I don't think it will ever work. I'm all with the guys that want to see the early war planes, I really am. I flew the 109E4 a lot this past tour. The 109E4 is about as uncompetitive a plane as we have in AH. That said, I still had a good time flying it (for the most part). Now THAT said, I don't think many people would. I also don't think many people would enjoy flying the C202, Spit I, Hurri I, P40 (if it ever gets introduced), or ANY plane that isn't 1944 or up. The Spit IX is an exception, because it is very well suited to 'mixing it up' with great guns, turning, and acceleration. The SpitV is also an exception, but just because the most popular plane in the game is the Spit IX and the Spit V outturns it while retaining marginally worse acceleration and the same guns.

The 109E4 almost turns with the Spit IX, it is slower, rolls much worse, accelerates worse, climbs worse, and has about half the firepower.

The Spit I is slower than the Spit IX, turns better, rolls worse, accelerates worse, climbs worse, and has maybe 1/10th the firepower.

The Hurri I stacks up the same as the Spit I.

The P40 would stack up the same as the 109E4.

It isn't the 1944 'speed demons' that make it hard for the early war planes to compete, guys. It is the 'jack of all trades' 1942 Spit IX. That said, the guys flying the 1944-45 planes fly them so they can GET AWAY from the Spit IXs, not fight them. We've got a reasonable 'balance of power' in the MA now between the late war planes and the early/mid-war planes (Spit IX and V). The other early war planes don't have a place in the arena as it is, and trying to force people to fly them will just make them mad and cause them to leave, not 'diversify' the arena.

If you want the arena to be 'diverse', you have to do it yourself. Fly one of the 'hangar queens' once in a while, instead of complaining that nobody flies them.

fd ski · « **Reply #23 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:41:38 PM »

you should realise then, that if majority people are indeed like that, then they are the ones paying for the game.
If that's so, it would be extreemly stupid of HTC to do things to make them like the game less.

Let's talk realisic, not utopia, eh ?

My suggestoin would be as follows:

Per points right now, as the numbers show ( with exception of F4U-1C ) are almost none existant in the arena. It's a shame that HTC uses up the time to make planes that noone can fly.

So, lower all perk points across the board to below 10 level.

Lower the ENV values of perk planes and all hot rod rides which get more then 5% arena usage to ENV value of 1 to 5.

Raise the ENV values of planes which are underused to 70+

If one mission in C202 with 1 kill earns you a flight in 262, while same will take you 60 missions in La7, which will you do ?

If those people indeed want the latest and greatest, they will jump at the chance of flying 262/spit14/tempest/Ta152.
But right now there are two problems with that:
-perks are too expensive,
- perk planes are so rare in the arena, that you are automatically targeted by everyone around you.

Lowering perk values in this case cause the following:
- more perk plane usage ( why have those planes modeled when noone uses them ? I can't remember last time I saw Ta152 )

- more people flying lesser planes to earn them - to counter the perk planes already up and about.

This is a very delicate equation. Overdoing it will cause the arena full of 262s and tempests. HTC should post the stats to the community group which could review the bare math behind them, and make recommendations on the usage in previous tour, not plane's performance/preferance.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #24 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:42:23 PM »

Quote

90% of the people who fly AH are flying it because they wanna be hotshots ala Top Gun... most of 'em don't even know where the fuel tank is in the plane their flying.

Good one wulfie... its always a wise idea to start using "them" in your argument. And "90% do something" too... especially when its so obvious you are pulling that number out of your ass.

Because... what you are really saying is "10% of use should decide the fate for the other 90%".

AKDejaVu

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #25 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:47:30 PM »

So using k/d is presumably a way to argue that a plane should or should not be perked?

If we are going to do that, wouldn't it make more sense to actually disect the statistics for that particular plane to find out the k/d among every player who has at one time or another flown the plane? The to find out the average lowest k/d, mid range k/d and average high k/d?

In this case, I'll bet you another box of donuts that the P51D, while maintaining only a 1:1k/d at the moment, could and would hold a much higher k/d if it weren't for the abundant of newbies flying them. There are less newbies that fly other planes, the 190A8 for example, has close to a 2.0k/d... so does this mean it's twice as capable as the P51D? of course not, it means less newbies fly it because it's harder. It's got 4 cannons and is fast, but it's a bear to handle.

The P51D, when in doubt, can drop a notch or two of flaps and scurry out of a lot of planes gunsights. Then proceed to point it's nose down and haul bellybutton back to the safety of his ack.

Also, I didn't pick the slowest plane... The HurriI and 109E are slower than the SpitI.

You are on the deck turn fighting with a SpitV in a SpitI... you got that fight pretty much won. Even if he does try to run away, he can't out accelerate you like the '44 planes can. This means you have more hope of damaging him before he gets out of range of your guns.

What will do you do vs a P51D? Not a damn thing except turn in tight circles until he shoots you down.
-SW

fd ski · « **Reply #26 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:50:10 PM »

wulfe,
I'm using % of total kills now because that's the only number avaiable to reflect the actual usage.

If Pyro allowed an access to the total sorties in each plane, that would be determining factor as far as i'm conserned.

J_A_B · « **Reply #27 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:54:18 PM »

So now we're up to perking planes based not on how they actually do in the arena, but how they could do if only good pilots flew 'em?

The "perk mafia" is getting funnier all the time.

J_A_B

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #28 on:** April 03, 2002, 01:58:05 PM »

The planes highlighted in red comprise 53% of kills in the game. That's only 7 planes. The 190D9, 110G-2, Typhoon IB, and F4U-1D comprise another 17.78%.

The A6M5b comprises 3.02% and Seafire comprise 3.49%, but I bet this is from base defense.

Does that 53% even care what plane they are flying? So long as it's got a huge edge over the ones currently in game, does it really matter to them? Something tells me no.

If the SpitXIV, a 1944 plane, is perked, why is a La7, another 1944 plane, not? Anemic cannons? Nope sorry, 3xB20s is a very good package. The 2xShVAKs aren't. Give it just the 2xShVAKs for free and the 3xB20 package as a cheap perk, bet it's usage drops like a rock.

Pulling that number out of my bellybutton or not, it's obvious for all to see that the type of plane doesn't matter... it's speed and guns and ability to turn when it needs to do matter.
-SW

Urchin · « **Reply #29 on:** April 03, 2002, 02:01:44 PM »

I think the LA-7 offers a large enough performance advantage that people would just adjust to using the 2 cannons instead of 3, to be honest.