Perk/ENV discussions aka. lies, lies and statisics :)

[hazed-]

what if you earned no perks for killing a 1940 plane in a 1944-45 plane? but that aircraft cost you 1 or 2 perks to fly every flight?

wouldnt this encourage the use of early aircraft in order to supliment those costly late war rides? you would still have to face 1944-45 planes in oyur late war ride and you would lose perks.where as the guy flying spit1s has nothing to lose engaging the late war planes.

the point is incentive and challenge.

any game that loses challenge or becomes repetative becomes dull.
Flying the BOB setup in the CT only served to remind me theres so many other 'types' of flying than this endless high speed bnz stuff.

I really think that if each tour the most over used aircraft got penalised by then coting 1 or 2 perks for the next tour would at least see less use of that particular aircraft for a while.even if you did this for the top 3 each tour it would make a difference.

The only guys i see complaining here are veterans that even a 1-10 perk penalty wouldnt affect anyhow!
Im willing to pay a cost for the dora that i like to fly.I have no problem with it.What i have got a problem with is being almost forced to fly it in order to compete with all the other late war planes.
If any of you guys flew the BOB setup you must surely have realised the fights were damn fun if not ONLY because they lasted longer!
Tac you are against this but you even posted the other day that you enjoyed the longer fights you encountered in the TA did you not?(think it was you or maybe yeager)

All these objections make no sense to me. Its not like they are asking you to pay 60 perks all of a sudden for a plane you have had free for years.we are talking low costs (less than 5 or 10 perks). prices that make the free and uncareing use of them have a penalty.
if we perked the la7or nik,spit9(overuse not performance) dora or p51 etc etc for 2 or 3 (maybe 4 perks in some cases) you wouldnt see people HO'ing in them like morons.
NO they would take a free plane for that.AND THEN for a few weeks or a tour or two we would see less of them.
As soon as their USE dropped to average the perk cost drops to zero again and away you go.

this isnt stopping anyone from flying them.(well apart from 2 weekers) It is however encouraging the use of other planes that cost nothing to fly.Plus its making an arena that is hopefully populated with more of the other types we dont see much use of at the moment.

You guys talk like everything has to be set in stone! I thought the damn perk system was going to be dynamic and fluctuate according to use.Not just put the most desireable planes up on a shelf where even picking them up to play with means severe loss if you drop em.
It sucks if you ask me.Its why evrytime i go in MA i go for one reason.A quick blast in the late war planes because nothing else stands a chance.I soon miss the more drawn out fights from CT or Scenarios or snap shots or TODs'. But then im the only one who does right?

[J_A_B]

If the "perk mafia" liked the way it was in the CT so much, why aren't they spamming the CT board with this thread instead of trying to force their ideas upon all the rest of us?  The CT is there people, and the CT staff DOES listen.  You can have what you want WITHOUT destroying the game for people such as myself.

Cheap perks, all late-war planes perked, all that junk you "perk mafia" people want....the CT staff is willing to do it all.

J_A_B

[hazed-]

JAB your 'perk mafia' line is as dumb as all the other nicknames people seem to take great pleasure in spouting.

however yours just isnt catchy or funny enough nice try though

doesnt matter how many times you repeat it its not getting any funnier.

oh and btw jab according to your stats a cost of 2 or 3 perks wouldnt stop YOU flying it.you earn enough in it to fly it forever at that price.Others who use the p51 for suicide runs or just fly it because its quick and have little skill in it wouldnt though.

In the case of the spit and nik and LA7 though , who EVEN YOU must agree are getting so common  as to be making the variety of 'differnt types' of encounters almost obsolete.
Have YOU noticed how many spit drivers use them to constantly HO you? even when you've flown well to actually get around on their 6?
well if they cost those guys a few perks how long before they chose something else? or even ran out of perks and were forced to fly something else for a WHILE.
then as the 'overall' use of the model decreased they could return to the old free price point.(spit fans and vets wont be bothered by the measily cost)
IN THE MEAN TIME for a tour or two we would all fight some different opponents.

this isnt about taking away your favourite ride at all.You seem to be locked in a fantasy world of perceived persecution.get over it.or do you want your cake and eat it forever?

rmember i am willing to have my favoured late war ride(dora) perked also even though you dont see half as many of them as the p51s.whats the big sacrifice here?????

why dont me and you fight in 190a5s and p51b's for a tour? would it be so bad?

[Furious]

From Tac:

Exactly why most of the arena are spitIXs, la7s and n1ks and p51d's and d9's and 109g10's although the pony and d9's and 109g10s do require ACM to get kills in).

Others as well mention these two planes as being ranked up there as the most used planes.  I myself rarely see them (although I do fly the d9 about 50% of the time), so I checked the tour 25 FvF stats to find out the true ranks.
 
Most kills to least:

1.  Spitfire Mk IX
2.  N1K2
3.  P-51D
4.  La-7
5.  SpitV
6.  P-38L
7.  F6F-5
8.  Typhoon IB
9.  Fw 190D-9
10. F4U-1D
11. Bf 109G-10

Why do these planes get mentioned when the p38 and f6f and typhoon don't?

Might be the LW pilots are sooo good, it feels like you are surrounded by them.  


F.

[hazed-]

furious its because there are less fans of those aircraft but they are on par in performance. So I personally wouldnt object to them recieving similar perking to allied types of the same performance (P51D being the doras closest match imo)

lets be fair to the poor ol allied silver sleeves eh?

[J_A_B]

Thanks for checking my stats Hazed.....I don't think I've ever looked at 'em.  At least then if you guys DO get your way hopefully I won't be affected too badly (although I'll still resist yas).          


As for variety.....That's a matter of opinion.  Personally I feel there is a LOT of variety in AH.  Every time I fly, I can count on seeing plenty of Spits, LA7's, N1K2's, P-51's, P-38's, 190's, 109's, Typhoons, B-17's/LANC's, and a fair number of F6F's and F4U's if there's a carrier around.  Even in my flight earlier today, I encountered several P-47's, Me-110's, a couple of 205's and even several AR-234 jets.  Add Hurricanes and Zeros to that list if I'm attacking a base somewhere.  I see a perkplane or two on virtually every flight I make; sure they're not common as dirt but they ARE being used.  Granted some planes are more numerous than others, but I fail to see where any individual plane is overrunning the MA.  

In other words, I'm fairly satisfied with the current planeset/perkset.  I've got nothing against those who would like change, but really, wouldn't it be best for everyone if those who want something different asked for these changes to be placed in the CT or some other completely new arena?    Why is there a need to exclude people?

J_A_B

[AKDejaVu]

hazed said:
oh and btw jab according to your stats a cost of 2 or 3 perks wouldnt stop YOU flying it.you earn enough in it to fly it forever at that price.Others who use the p51 for suicide runs or just fly it because its quick and have little skill in it wouldnt though.

LOL!  I find it hard to believe you are worried about what a suicide runner is flying.

I also find it hard to believe that you think its OK to keep it so only the better pilots can fly a certain plan continuously.  That's elitist to say the least.

AKDejaVu

[AKDejaVu]

Hazed also said:

Have YOU noticed how many spit drivers use them to constantly HO you? even when you've flown well to actually get around on their 6?

ROTFLMAO!  Stop it hazed! you're killing me here!

AKDejaVu

[hazed-]

I can see your point here JAB and i have indeed been using the CT more and more. But its not always set up to my taste and i dont think i should have to fight there all the time and leave the MA to furballers etc.

Some days i like a furball, sometimes i feel like an axis allies set up.Other times i feel like flying doras and again other times i like the huge numbers for large missions in the MA.I try to get as much variety as i can to stop from becoming burned out as i did before in AH and I left.

you are right that variety is sometimes found in the MA. I too find somedays i fly into totally new encounters, especially after a new planeset release but all too often its another spit or nik fight.

the point is here is that anyone who is a real fan of any plane that gets the 'perk surcharge' will be able to fly it all the time if they are capable of getting roughly 2 kills per flight or not constantly dieing.

If in all these months and months of flying them they have accumilated huge stocks of perks they will certainly help pay for them for quite a while.If they continue to use them unsparingly they will continue to cost and gradually they will lose perks as the price slowly creeps up.
Those that dive into fights just to get the odd kill before they die or think nothing of HO'ing will soon find them too costly to use for this purpose.They will either switch to another model (spit9 to spit 5 say) or they may try something new.Who knows maybe they will like the new choice? what we will see is less spit9 more spit5.then the spit5 gets over used they switch to say f6f or la5s or 190? by this time the spit9 goes down in price and many will return to it(including any newbies that couldnt afford them for a tour or two). What we 'all' will get from this is a fluctuating 'popular' aircraft.(varied fights, at least from tour to tour).

with this system we could even lower the cost of the super planes(helping newbies that want to try them out). If they start to become a problem they will get expensive again and so will go back to a price that keeps them at an acceptable level.

certain models that are obviously too good to ever be free or cheap like the me262 wont receive this treatment of course but at least we should be allowed to see just how many would really fly them.I dont ever fly tempests or f4u-4s because i dont want to lose 60 perks (out of the 300 or so i seem to average in my fighter perks) whilst i learn their good and bad points.
I feel this is a huge waste of the aircrafts we have.I mean do we really want to only see them once in a blue moon?

ah well i guess ive made my veiws clear enough.Let me just say fd ski for doing these sums and opening the debate with a bit of evidence for others to look at.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Wotan
what eskimo? who told you this?



Air points = PlaneDamageScore + KillScore /



KillScore =
((AirKillsThisSortie * 1.0) + (AirAssistsThisSortie * 0.25) +
(GroundKillsThisSortie * 1.0) + (GroundAssistsThisSortie * 0.25) * DeathMult) +
TotalTourKillScore
 
TotalDamage =
(DamagePointsScoredOnObjectsTh isSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourDamagePointsScoredOn Objects +
(DestroyedPointsScoredOnObject sThisSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourDestroyedPointsScore dOnObjects
 
Death Multipliers
 
 Landed 1.0
Discoed  0.25
Bailed .5
Ditched .4
Captured
Killed  0.25
Crashed 0.25
 
Eny values to my knowledge have nothing at all to do with air points?

You have a source?

Wotan,
I thought that's how it works...?
I am about to log on for the first time this tour so my scores are all 0.  I'll write down what happens and check the score,  then post what I find.

eskimo

[AKSWulfe]

The ENY values do not currently do anything to score.

You can fly any plane you want and you'll get the same score. Wotan got those figures from the Scoring pages in the help area. The ENY values and OBJ values were invented with the perk system and are used exclusively for the perk system.
-SW

[guttboy]

Great Discussion!

Nice job on crunching those numbers....I promised I would never do math in public so thats Way above my level.

Although I have been flying AH for only 3 months now Ill tell you my 2 cents and since this is the BBS you Have to read it....lol....

Keep it the way it is.....a good rule of leadership is that you divide things into thirds....on the one hand 1/3 of the people will love your decisions....1/3 will hate your decisions....and 1/3 will be in the middle......Dont change things that only matter to the pissed off 1/3.....

I am in the middle third to top third....

Like perks....dont get a whole lot so when I get a bunch I may take up that 262 for kicks.

Like the hurricane.....Plane is a blast to fly and you know what it can hold its own with other planes....im not the best and my score certainly reflects that but thats the first plane I was getting 3kill runs in consistently....now flying P38 but thats a whole diff story.

HTC....keep the perks the way they are......for us guys that dont get tons o perks each flight it makes us earn our keep to try one of them out.  You know something to shoot for....


my 2.5 cents worth....

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
The ENY values do not currently do anything to score.

You can fly any plane you want and you'll get the same score. Wotan got those figures from the Scoring pages in the help area. The ENY values and OBJ values were invented with the perk system and are used exclusively for the perk system.
-SW

True.
I was totaly off.
0osik and I just did some testing in the dueling arena.
We could find no trend in how kill points are scored, but we did find out that ENY value has nothing to do with it.

eskimo

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
So using k/d is presumably a way to argue that a plane should or should not be perked?

In this case, I'll bet you another box of donuts that the P51D, while maintaining only a 1:1k/d at the moment, could and would hold a much higher k/d if it weren't for the abundant of newbies flying them. There are less newbies that fly other planes, the 190A8 for example, has close to a 2.0k/d... so does this mean it's twice as capable as the P51D? of course not, it means less newbies fly it because it's harder. It's got 4 cannons and is fast, but it's a bear to handle.
-SW

The 190A8 is much easier to handle than the mustang, lots of mustang deaths are from spins.  Even a good mustang pilot will probably not get as many kills as a good 190A8 pilot because of the cannons.  The A8 normally has a good K/D because it is a killer, even if it can't run away quite as good as the mustang.

Over the long run, most plane's K/Ds average out the skill factor.   I agree the P-51D is an exception, because it attracts so many newbies and is difficult for them.

[lazs2]

hazed et all... my point is simply this.   I believe that everyone should have as much choice as the planeset allows.   I believe that you should be able to fly a dora or a pee 51 or a 262 any time you like.   I do not believe however that you should be able to fly it aginst spit ones, 109e's and p40's.  I don't even belive you should fly it against spit 5's or -1A's or lag5's or a6m5's unless they want to.

The perk system can never make this happen.   An RPS can't let everyone fly every plane.   Seperate arenas don't work.   The "area" arena is the only solution that I can see.    

Perhaps for now... an early war area with the rest of the planes using the idiotic perk system till we have enough for say three areas?
lazs