Author Topic: Perk/ENV discussions aka. lies, lies and statisics :)  (Read 883 times)

Offline hblair

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Perk/ENV discussions aka. lies, lies and statisics :)
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2002, 02:15:36 PM »
I think low cost perk values would work in the MA as far as getting the over-used planes less used and the less used planes used more. Then comes the question 'Is that what we want?' IMO, yes, I'd like to see the perk/ENY values encourage the use of all planes.

In the setup I ran in the CT several weeks ago, I used cheap perks to get the plane sets evened out. (of course I also had in mind evening up the axis vs. allied sides) Here's a chart of the kill/die ratio after 3 days of the first running of the perdonia setup. Notice the ratio of kills per plane. The 190A5 and especially the spit5 have a disproportionately high number of kills. The next time I ran that setup I lowered the ENY on the 190A5 to 20 and the Spit 5 to 13. Here's a chart of the values the last time we ran this. The spit5's usage was cut by 1/3. I can't find my screenie of the chart after the adjustment, but taking the ENY way down really had an affect.

This was last run a few weeks before 1.09 was released and doesn't have the new planes in it. They would have to be given a high ENY of course.

IMHO the cheap perk method encourages the use of all planes yet discourages the hording of perk points, and the mid war rides are easily obtainable in a couple of sorties. I'd like to see the perk's go this route rather than only having the high-priced late war super planes affected.

Offline Furious

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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2002, 02:18:08 PM »
A social engineering nightmare; I pity Pyro.

IMHO there is nothing terribly wrong with the setup we have now or the previous one.  You will never get folks to flock to the 202, spit 1 or 109e4 in the MA.  Just won't happen.  These fine craft will get most of their use in the CT and scenarios.

Besides its fun to feel arrogantly superior to the hordes in their spits as I run away in my d9.:D


F.

Offline Tac

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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2002, 03:01:13 PM »
zigrat, the difference is the P-51b is not a 109. Simple. How many b-ponies you see up? How many 109E's or F4's you see up (when you can tell them apart. But normally, if the 109 is outclimbing you or smaking you with 1 ping its a g6 or g10..and thats almost all the 109s I meet).

I put those numbers basing them on 2 factors. Their "place" in the modelled planeset (aka early to late war) and their potential. A 51B is still a damn fast plane, but its the earliest pony, has worse visibility and only 4 .50 cals. What would you rather meet against your 109E or F? a 51D or a B? I cant say to perk the 51B even at .5 perks because it is the only early model of that plane.

All im saying is I would like to have a system where the planes above the "base" (aka earliest) modelled plane cost some perks. from .5 to 2 perks for most of them, some would have higher cost due to their unbalancing potential (aka, chog). This will encourage the use of the entire planeset, not just the 1944/spitIX - like rides.

I believe we would see much more la5's than la7's if the la5 was free and would enable people to get much more perks per hour than flying an la7, which would cost them perks, albeit an insignificant amount of perks. same with the dpony and the spits and the 109s/190's.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2002, 03:22:47 PM »
Why do you want perk values lowered? For what purpose?

Because they are rare?

Thats a good thing aint t ? 10 perks...... shoot I could fly a temp forever.

Cheaper perks will not equal more parity. You are not cheated out of anything by being forced to fly a plane with a lo eny value and killing planes with a high eny value. Thats how it should be.

If folks choose to fly la7s till the cows come home let umm. But if they want to fly a perk plane then let them rethink their strategy a bit.

We just dont have enough planes yet to start perking things like the la7 p51 dora n1k2 and g10. At one time I was all for doing that but there is simply not enough different planes to accomodate this.

You perk all those then the yak and la5 jump in right where they left off. Theres always "the next best thing". We all know that a good chunk of the folks flying those planes do so because it offers them a greater chance to get kills in. Most of them plain suk no matter what they fly.

You cant make anyone fly a plane they dont like and dont have the skills to fly. And why worry about it.

The biggest 3 problems I personally am having with the main is

1. connections
2. the over crowded arena
3. en mass gangbanging (all sides do it you see those mass raids of 50 or so raping 10 guys trying to defend a base)

I just simply can not maintain enough SA to keep track of everyone in furball that have 30 plus folks.

All of these are being addressed.

I dont see why the sudden uproar over eny values and perk planes. Its been what a year or so they have been if effect?

I must be blind because but I think the last thing we need is an arena full of cheap temp f4u4 spit14s and 262s. You might as well get ride of the early birds now and recall AH "Wonder Birds High".

I would hope as the planset fills out with more early and early-mid planes that planes like a dora and g10 and p51d get pushed up into the perk ranks.

I sure wouldn't want an rps. Then yuo will end up with just 1 day a tour to fly your temp F4u4 Spit 14 etc. Thats about 12 days a year.

I will offer this radical statement "Everything is ok as it is" :eek:

No Free lunch

No free or reduced perks

You wanna be a perk farmer do it like everyone else.

Offline bozon

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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2002, 03:43:11 PM »
no matter what, the technology gap betwin very early war planes (spit I, hurri I, 109E,202...) is too big to compansate for.
consider a "history of aviation" sim game. how much would you perk the F-16D in an areana with an "eindecker" or a "camel"? what ENY values?
it's impossible to cover such a gap. so is the gap in an entire WWII planeset (not such THAT ridiculous though).

I liked what the CT team did with light perkings and ENY values. this will never even out planes usage, but it will shift it slightly and give some greater reward for flying a terribly inferior plane (beside the great laugh of shooting down an La7 with hurri I).

the ENY differences should be substansial, where Dora, p51D and such, will earn you almost no perks, p47D11, 205, 109G2, La5 and their generation having some perk-gathering ability and BoB erra planeset having extream ENY value.
the "hotshots" will fly their 1945 monsters for they couldn't care less about perks, and those who are interested in some perks for a 262 or tempest or whatever will get it fairly fast, shooting the "hotshots" down, even with a low K/D ratio.

but still you'll have hords of La7/p51/spitIX and a rare 202.

Bozon
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Offline Tac

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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2002, 03:47:44 PM »
"Why do you want perk values lowered? For what purpose?"

The eny/obj would be adjusted so that you would basically have to shoot down 3 or 4 early war rides IN an early war ride to get the 2pnt to fly a late war ride.  Or killing a late war in an early war. Killing a late war in a late war plane wouldnt get you many perks either, thats the way to control their population, since it would be hard for anyone to maintain a constant supply of perks to buy late war planes while flying a late war plane. kinda like you can get 10 kills in a 262 now and only gain 3 perks ;)

You could fly your tempest, but hey, the tempest IS a perked plane now, it wont cost 2 perks. It'd cost 20 or more. Its the late war versions of the currently unperked planes that would cost up to 2 perks.

Of course, think of this as if you started tour with 0 perkies. Take off in your 202 or 109E and in about 3 or 4 sorties, shooting down 6 or so people you may gain about 5-10 perks. Take your 51D up or la7 or 109g10... shoot down 12 people and gain 3 perks. And not even fester can get 12 victories each and every sortie. the arena would gradually be a truly "melting pot" of rides, not the current spitIX/N1k/la7/51D/latewar waffle rides dominating the air.

And that is how I see it :)

Offline Nefarious

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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2002, 03:56:54 PM »
is why the La7=20 earns you more points than Pony D=12

La7 seems like it is and will be becoming the most popular ride.

I think it should be lowered to at least 12-14.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2002, 04:00:21 PM »
ENY value has a second function besides determining perk points.
ENY value is used to crunch score points.  It works under the same principle as the perk system, except you only get 25% of your earned score points if you die, 75% for a ditch, etc.

eskimo

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2002, 04:25:12 PM »
yeah thats right ....if we perk an aircraft the arena doesnt get more diversified! and if you perk the most popular ride, AH will fall apart because all those people will leave AH!

what a crock.....the F4uc held a firm 'most popular' plane position for tour after tour until we finally got sick of it. It was perked at a REASONABLE level and its use diminished to a normal level, on par with the average.Did people leave AH? of course they didnt. They went on to another plane and learned to use it to earn perks so they could fly the F4uc again.And guess what? some never did go back to it because they fell in love with a new ride.They could employ the same tactics in some, but maybe had to learn better shooting skills.Some chose other cannon rides and learned new flying tactics.
Now i seem to remember back then certain members, even ones posting their warnings now said that this was a terrible move and people wouldnt put up with their favourite rides being perked etc etc. But when the fuss died down those that really loved the aircraft realised it wasnt so out of reach as they feared.They could still fly it, only not all the damn time.Who benefited? we ALL did. those that flew it all the time switched to  other aircraft and that huge 20-25%? lump of players were split between the other rides.
what did we see? A more DIVERSIFIED choice of enemies to fight.Like it or not, NO OTHER AIRCRAFT has since even approached that level of over use. but instead we are begining to see a new, similar pattern only this time with a core of 3 or 4 types.
if these were perked, but at a REASONABLE cost, the true fans of them will still be able to fly them and earn enough to KEEP flying them.BUT those that use them because they are easy or more suited to th MA will move onto a NEW type.
All this talk of perking being the end of the AH world? you all  know full well its roadkill. People love this game because of its superb enjoyment and accuracy as much as they like one particular ride.

Even when the results of the f4uc perking are quite obviously good ones, we still see a core of players saying it was a huge mistake and again deciding that perking anything more would end AH altogether!. 'perking doesnt work, I know i played WB'...remember them?


you guys deny diversity yet, at 10%,the nearest plane in that list(p51d) is at half the usage of the f4uc.
where did the other 10% go? they went to other aicraft didnt they.THE pilots were divercified!

its time to consider reevaluating the perk awards/costs in AH if you ask me.we don see too many tempests or spit 14s or ta152s or f4u4s so why such huge perk values? people worried their favourite ride might have some competition? (jab:)?)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2002, 04:54:04 PM by hazed- »

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2002, 04:31:58 PM »
what eskimo? who told you this?



Air points = PlaneDamageScore + KillScore /



KillScore
=
((AirKillsThisSortie * 1.0) + (AirAssistsThisSortie * 0.25) +
(GroundKillsThisSortie * 1.0) + (GroundAssistsThisSortie * 0.25) * DeathMult) +
TotalTourKillScore
 
TotalDamage =
(DamagePointsScoredOnObjectsTh isSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourDamagePointsScoredOn Objects +
(DestroyedPointsScoredOnObject sThisSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourDestroyedPointsScore dOnObjects
 
Death Multipliers
 
 Landed 1.0
Discoed  0.25
Bailed .5
Ditched .4
Captured
Killed  0.25
Crashed 0.25
 
Eny values to my knowledge have nothing at all to do with air points?

You have a source?

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2002, 04:36:15 PM »
Urchin, it's not the # of cannons though. As far as my experiences in the game, the B20 has better ballistics than the ShVAK... atleast it seemed that way to me. At longer ranges I was able to pelt guys easier than I was with the ShVAKs. Admittedly, I'm used to the ShVAKs on the La5FN, but I do believe they are located and fire from the same location in the La7.

Or maybe it's just the type of warhead the cannons fire. Maybe the ShVAK fires more HE rounds while the B20 fires more AP rounds (which for some reason seem to do more damage).

Heck, I dunno.

Anyway, my point is not to perk all of the 1944/late war monsters....

My point is that no matter what incentive you place on the lesser used aircraft in AH, you will never be able to fully intice people to fly them unless the net return is greater than the effort they put into it. Then it would be worth something to them, but since the net return is essentially zero until they kill another plane, then that isn't enough incentive to get people to fly them. And on top of all that, when the arena is over-run with 7 types of planes... all fast, turn pretty well and have monster armaments, then any incentive placed on the lesser used aircraft goes right out the window. "What? I can't even compete in this thing and I only got 3 perk points my last flight... screw this"

Believe it or not, that's the way it works for the majority of people.

If that weren't true, then the F4U-1C never would of peaked at 20+% usage.
-SW

Offline Tac

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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2002, 04:54:01 PM »
"What? I can't even compete in this thing"
 

Exactly why most of the arena are spitIXs, la7s and n1ks and p51d's and 190d9's and 109g10's (though the pony and d9's and 109g10s do require ACM to get kills in). Since those planes are extremely forgiving, very fast, very well armed and are free, everyone flies them. To "compete" you need to fly them too.. or have enough ego to face them in an inferior, slower, poorly armed, far less forgiving plane.

"and I only got 3 perk points my last flight... screw this""

and precisely why the early war planes arent used regardless of how many points they give you per kill.

Chances are, you'll get 6 kills in a n1k in an hour while it will take you 1 hour to get a kill in a 202. check your ENY out and you'll realize that a n1k is a far better choice to get perkies in that a 202, just because the sheer number of kills you can get in it and with minimum effort when compared to a 202. Especially in the furballs of AH. I got 4 kills defending a field in a hurricane 1 in about 30 minutes time. just HO'ing every damn la7 and n1k that came my way.Dying a lot too. Perkie gain? around 7 perks total. Compared to a spitIX sortie in a furball, get about 14 kills in 30 minutes.. and dying a lot too. Perkies gained: 16 total. The spitIX eny is far lower than the hurri1, and yet see which one gets more perks in the same time? ENY is not capable of population control.

Offline Soda

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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2002, 05:02:28 PM »
Be careful what you ask for... think about it a bit.  What is the reason to ask for this, is it to make some of the earlier rides more competitive, to remove an unbalancing ability (see C-Hog for reference) or is it to increase the variety of planes (again refer to C-Hog) you see in the MA?  I don't know that you can force any issue by perking more planes.

If you are perking the planes based on competitive issues then the only fair way to do it is to work from the least capable plane (which might be something like the Hurri I).  That is going to set the bar awefully low for perking, things that are only average now, like the 190A5, are going to be uber to a Hurri I.  If you pick another level then you are not making it any more fair in the MA, you are just re-setting the point at which you think "fair" should start.  People still won't fly things that are sub-competitive if there is something that is "better" that they can fly for free.  If you set the bar at the 190A5, no more people will likely fly the Hurr I even though it could be considered "more competitive" as compared to the standard.  It'll still be completely out-classed.

If you are trying to remove an unbalacing ability of a specific plane, then that ability should be fairly unique and unfair.  Name what that is in the group of P-51, La7, and 190D9.. I just don't get it.  They can all run fast or catch you if you are slow?  2K of alt pretty much negates that advantage, I had a Hurri C catch my La7 the other day because he dove on me and caught me.  None of them is overpowering in any way, the P-51 is the most capable of the lot, on average, but isn't the best down low.  The La7 is the best down low but sucks even at mid alts.  The 190 is a fine ride, good in both, but not the best in either.  Sounds like they are all similar in ability, just tuned differently for different altitudes.  You can't claim any one of them has a clear ability that is unbalancing since they all have a similar ability.

If you perk the planes based on "popularity" then you risk taking the following planes immediately out of circulation for newbie pilots (since they won't have many/any perks).  The P-51D, 190D9, La7, SpitIX, SpitV and N1K.  I honestly doubt it would seriously hinder their use by veterans since they tend to have perks built up and land their planes more often.  The average newbie probably lands 1 sortie in 10, the veteran can probably land 8 in 10 if they wanted to.  So, you end up with veterans almost un-effected while they get to club newbies in lesser planes.  Honestly, the newbies need the powerful planes more than the veterans to make up for a lack of ACM skills.

Secondly, how would it affect the usage patterns in the MA to take these planes out of "free-ride" use.  Well, you'd see alternate rides pop up that were just as popular (or more so) and you would have to ensure that these new rides didn't encounter the same problems.  Look at the P-51B, for example, anyone who was a P-51D pilot would switch to the B, a lot of 190 and La7 drivers would also.  The P51B offers EVERYTHING that the D model does except it comes with only 4 guns, not 6.  Same speed, range, etc.  It would HAVE to be perked at the same time or it would just become the "new D".  Thus, there would be no free P-51's anymore.  And how about the Spits... well, the XIV is a perk for sure, the IX is a perk then, the V is super popular (1% less than the La7) so it'd have to go and the Seafire is just a SpitV... that leaves only a Spit I.  That would surely piss a lot of people off since the Spit I is not really a competitor.  So, for two of the most famous and popular planes in the MA you don't have the P51 in any model and the Spit is what would generally be considered a target (imagine what even a Zeke would do to a Spit I... ouch).  that's not to mention other planes, like the TYphoon and 109G10 that would now be even more popular because they pack a HUGE speed advantage over the test of the field, do you take them out too?  I suspect you would be forced to since you removed all their contemporaries which had abilities to deal with them.  A G10 would appear like an Me262 to a SpitI.  Others, like the new hardended P-38 would pick up huge followings too and probably be destined for the same treatment.  Did this increase variety, no, probably not, it most likely decreased it as more and more planes got the similar treatment.

I just don't see how it could work.  In the CT the circumstances were different and light perking worked.  Nobody had time to build up a tonne of perks because they were reset each week (which was a terrible idea for the casual player) and few newbie pilots even bothered to come in there because of the increased difficulty (short icons, no dar, etc).  It also led to a lot of strato-dweeb'ism because people always wanted to protect their perk ride (if only 1-2 points even) by ensuring they were the highest thing around.  It also required that heavy bombers be perked too... I bet lots of people wouldn't like their B-17's, Lancs, Ki's and B26's perked, leaving only the TBM and Ju88 (which have about a 2 second survival time against opposition).

I appreciate the frustration of some people about the hordes of only 7 types of planes in the MA (or whatever that number may happen to be) but it's pretty hard to force it to a larger group by knocking out those 7 and trying to even out 8 new ones (or more).  You are far more likely to knock out these 7 and and end up with fewer.  While the C-Hog perking worked wonders, it also made it a relatively rare plane in the MA so how would perking these others make that any different.  It also meant that very few newbies ever fly the C-Hog, they save their points for Tempests, SpitXIV's, and Me262's.

-Soda

Offline Soda

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« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2002, 05:14:39 PM »
AKSWulfe, Urchin,
  The two different cannon options in the La7 are basically exactly the same in terms of ballistics ( I could summarize it by saying pathetic, but that's not the question that was asked :) ).  I've flown both quite a bit, along with the La5 (which has the same 2 gun ShVAK package). Switching between 2 and 3 guns makes no aiming difference (same aim point, convergence, drop, etc).  Their muzzle velocity is effecitvely the same, the big difference was in the weight savings on the Bo gun so they could fit 3 in the nose rather than 2.  The 2 gun ShVAK has more ammo (200/gun) than the Bo (150/gun) so you have more firing time with the 2 gun version.  The style of shooting is also very similar, you have to get close, very close, in order to has a reasonable chance of hitting with them unless you have a lot of experience.  Then again, the same could be said for the 30mm tater gun on the G10.

The largest difference is in the snapshot ability of the 3 gun version.  The 2 gun version has a limited snapshot (it can kill in 1 pass, but often things can slip through with little or no damage) while the 3 gun version tends to be more lethal on snapshots.  That's the big difference.  If you get cut in half on a high deflection, crossing shot by an La7 then chances are he has 3 guns.. if you hear some pings, take some damage but can fly out the other side, then he is flying 2 guns.  That's not exactly a unique ability though, 4 hispanos on a Typhoon will rip you up in a crossing shot, as will only 2 hispanos on a Spit... or 8 50's on a P47, etc etc etc...

-Soda

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2002, 05:23:50 PM »
Ah, maybe that was it Soda. They seemed more lethal to me, and somewhat easier to aim... of course this could of been because of all the shells flying out of the nose.  

I thought I read somewhere the B-20s had slightly better ballistics than the ShVAKs which is why they were "standardized" (only on the ones built at Yaroslavl- ones built at Moscow had the 2 ShVAK loadout) on La7s... could be mistaken though. I don't know much about Russian weapon's ballistics.
-SW