Of "furballers", "realism" and the MA...

[lazs1]

for either of us sw... but.. i think we both realize the the main issue... having the ma be a fun place where people can find a fite quickly vs some sort of phony history reenactment, is very important.  

Hornet has very eloquently stated what I believe are ours and the majority of players opinions about the MA in his thread.

when he says it is is less... uh... "abrasive" than when either of us do tho.
lazs

[AKSWulfe]

Agreed Lazs. I'll see you in the more entertaing MA.  
-SW

[AKDejaVu]

of course you are correct but are these not very small sins on reality when compared to the whopper, mortal go to hell, go directly to hell do not pass go, sin(s) that is field capture in AH???

Not really lazs.  You set your priorities different.

The idea behind field captures is considerably more historical than the idea behind mindless respawning to hop back into a furball.  The capture method is considerably gamey.. but we aren't playing with entire armies, navies and air forces at our command.  Things have to be done within the constraints of the game.

Fighter Vs Fighter is a side effect of the air war lazs.... not the purpose.<edit>this is refering to history.. not the MA</edit>

AKDejaVu

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]

[Nifty]

Originally posted by lazs1:
having the ma be a fun place where people can find a fite quickly vs some sort of phony history reenactment, is very important

I agree minus the word "phony."     Personally, I enjoy the historical re-enactments, phony or not.  However, I realize that not everyone does, so the elements of those scenarios (limited icon and dar settings for example) have little to no place in the MA.  If I want to roll from the hangar, fly without inflight dar, fight with my survival in mind first and foremost, I can do that right now in the MA without hurting another person's playstyle.  At that point, I'm having fun and you're having fun.  When the game mechanics force you into that style, neither of us have fun, because you don't pay to play, and I don't have you to shoot at (missing of course, then having you kill me 30 seconds later!)

btw, I don't roll from the hangar in the MA.  

[Yeager]

FWIW, AH has definately become the place of very large and mundane furballs and mindless, pointless pure comic dweebery.  Most casual gamers today would call it fun.  HTC has striven to attract these causual gamers (aka AW cliental, no disrespect intended) and appears to have succeeded quite nicely.

Like I told one of my squaddies last night, until something more honest comes along, this is probably all we are going to get.

Perhaps soon HTC can finally feel confident enough to provide the more demanding simulation consumer something else besides the game boy MA that lazs1 and his brothers seem to insist is somehow better for the rest of us.

You know, sometimes I wonder if A.I. was really all that bad.  Just depends on the crowd you run with I guess.....

[Nash]

Yeah Yeager but it should be pretty obvious by now that the MA is never going to be all things to all people. But that's not too bad... because there is a good and growing series of historical events that sound like the perfect thing fer ya.

I notice however that you and the 13th haven't even signed up for the Tour of Duty series. Mmmm? It really is about time for certain "historical realism" proponents to start putting their money where their mouth is and demonstrate that there really *is* a desire for an HA or anything else, rather than continue to idly wail about how they'd like to see the MA conform to their particular standards. It means nothing.

Put up or shaddup.    

We'll see you boys next Friday?

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]

[BlauK]

Nash,

It is true that events are the spice of this game. Only sad thing about them is that they occur only at certain times. For many pilots it is not possible to make that kind of dedication in rearranging RL schedules. E.g. for Europeans the ToD happen very late at night. I'd love to be there, but 5 am and sleeping kid in the next room just make it impossible.

Scenarios can never be a sufficient replacement for a HA where one could log on anytime  

Why could we not get a separate furball arena without buffs, gvs, field captures etc. Only fighters and maybe just 2 sides and shorter distances to fly between bases and indestructable ack on fields. That arena could have separate fighter stats and scores.

Then MA could be developed further towards HA with RPS etc. There could still be some furballs happening in such setting as well  

[Nash]

I appreciate that circumstances may prevent certain people from participating. But Yeag and crew are a 13 member North American squad. Zero presence.

The TOD *will* be expanded shortly to allow for Eurpoeans to fly in it. And currently there are Snapshots and Check 6's that run every weekend that are time zone friendly to both sides of the pond. If the banter on this BBS is an indication of anything, then it's a mystery to me why these aren't better attended.

Until they are, it's a clearer indication to me of the status of things than any random MA poll.

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by BlauK:
Then MA could be developed further towards HA with RPS etc. There could still be some furballs happening in such setting as well    

You don't fully understand the consequences surrounding a permanent HA arena with an RPS system that replaced the MA.

Read AGW. Right now people whine about the N1K2, La7, P51D, 190D9, F4U-1C and Spits..

The only thing that will change is what people are whining about.

Uneven sides. One side has better planes for a week or two, and further disrupts the team balances. We already have percieved conspiracy to dumb down LuftWaffe planes while beefing up Allied planes. Although it strikes me as strange that the Japanese and Italian, both axis, aircraft are not dumbed down like the LuftWaffe planes are claimed to be.

Anyways, a permanent arena like they got over at WB... well you can see the problems that accompany it. Why not leave well enough alone?

Nash is right about one thing though, of all the people that are up in arms about an HA and an arena based around historical connotations without a lick of historical representation other than the aircraft dogfighting each other are from air forces that historically fought one another during the historical World War II in which many things are now historic and in museums... I have yet to see a lot of these guy's faces in ANY event.

Actions speak louder than words, and so far HT sees no need for an HA when we have a 3 hour event on Sundays that is essentially setup as an HA and only 20 to 30 people show up for it....
-SW

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]

[Seeker]

"Perhaps soon HTC can finally feel confident enough to provide the more demanding simulation consumer something else besides the game boy MA that lazs1 and his brothers seem to insist is somehow better for the rest of us"

Pretentios, moi?

Offense taken, Yeager.

Fact is that you guys whine and whine and whine, yet don't turn up for events.

Of course, the event organisers also have their heads stuck in the sand....because they don't seem to realise there *is* a yearning for some thing they seem unwilling or unable to deliver.

Perhaps it's the elitist attitude that say "only we know what's good for the players".

Perhaps some _player led_ events would satisfy more people, of all types.

I know I've got a list of things *I'd* like to promote, and I realy don't understand why the CM's have such an exclusive attitude. Afterall, it's the events arena I want to use for *my* version of AH, I've no wishes to enforce it on MA customers, who in the main want to log on for an action fix.

Perhaps we need to start there.

[AKSWulfe]

Seeker, CMs are people that HTC can trust to run the server. They need to give people priveledges to run it. They can't very well let every person have priveledges to run the server. That would be like giving every user at a business Domain Admin rights on the server network.

It's stupid.

If you have event ideas, send them to the CMs. They are open to ideas and have stated this repeatedly.
-SW

[Seeker]

I understand what you're saying, SW, but I just don't think the current system is proving satisfactory.

Seeing as you guys love to turn AH into WB, I'd like to inject a little AW too (with Yeager's permission, of course).

We had the same problem in AW. Our answer was to have our verion of a CM (they were called AWAR, and I was one once, sniff) standing by in the arena to pull the levers and switches, and the event organiser (whom we called, confusingly enough, a CM) called the shots.

The result is that only those with the correct 'nanas ever got to so much look at a server script, and the players got the events they wanted (and at times, deserved!).

Still, that's only one way of doing it.

As far as the CM staff having an open mind, I'm afraid I don't agree; they've thier own agenda, same as everyone else, and it's my beleif that this is begining to be a problem

I've been contacted by two CM's independantly of each other in the last month offering to put on some events I've thought up (or stolen the idea for), but each time the effort just fades away. It's the same each time: "That sounds good, I'll get back to you"..and they don't.

I've even been told that the idea's been passed round the CM comitee (or what ever it's called) and was met with a "lukewarm" reception. You know what? I don't care about *their* judgement, it's not them the event's for!

I honestly can't see why there is such resistance to players planning their events (note, I said planning, not execute). It's not as if the SEA is in overwhelming demand on a nightly basis. I want it for *one* night a month, from around 21:00 to 23:59 CET. How does that conflict with what they've currently scheduled?

Oh well, time for my meds.....(lights a big one)

[AKSWulfe]

Seeker, I hear you. They are limited in their abilities and how many events they can run at once.

Perhaps a better way to get your events jump started would be to place your idea here in the AH Gen Discussion and get as many player's feedback as possible. Try to get as many player's to agree upon and like your idea/event.

There is no way the CM team can deny that without risking losing their priveledges. There's no way a group of paying customers will stand idly by when they all agree on something and a group of people given comp accounts decide that the player's really don't want that, they want something else that the CMs will offer.

Just get a lot of player's interested, maybe that's what you need.
-SW

[lazs1]

yeager take the stick outta your ass... You are proving my whole point.   How can you look down on furballers in this ... game?

I would really like for you to explain how what you do or even think you want to do, takes any more "skill" than furballing.  I believe that I have shown that furballing is at least as realistic and "historic" as any other aspect of AH so... You are just coming off as a pretentious, elitiest, phony blowhard.  

You don't have to participate in the furballs in AH... No, what you want tis to make it impossible for them to happen in the (of all things) MA so that people are forced to fly in a manner you deem more fun and better suited to your skills... Not, more "realistic" or "skilled".   furballers don't "force' anyone.   build a furball and they will come.

You must be getting old and slow and crabby... I remmember when you were more fun and less...
lazs

[ft]

My observation here is that furballs, while occuring historically, always were spiced by interests other than destroying fighters. Escorts wanted to keep interceptors tied up and away from the escortees, interceptors wanted to escape the escorts to attack the escortees. Fighter sweeps wanted to exhaust the fighters, forcing them to be resupplying on the ground rather than being up in the air causing trouble rather on. Usually one side had a fuel/position advantage while the other side was looking to get out and go home as fast as possible. Rarely would fighters just continue turning and burning, trying to rack up kills for the purpose of racking up kills alone. This of course changed the way they were flown... and shortened them. No neverending furballs fuelled by A/C respawning mere miles away. As for fun... I think all, furball fans and strat fans alike, would be thrilled if a method could be found to provide more than individual victories in the furballs. No, I don't have the hows. But to throw the whole idea out the window as "not wanted", well, that's daft IMO.

Challenges? "Four Spit XIV will be flying a sweep shortly. Get together an opposiong force and get in touch and we will tell you our route! Try to stop us!" Arranged duels WWI-style.  

I say, keep looking for a compromise. If you want to give up, go all out and demand the arena with a 10x10 mile map with two uncapturable fields 5 nm apart.

Cheers,
  /ft, thinking aloud