Of "furballers", "realism" and the MA...

[Seeker]

Actualy, although it seems common sense that furballs had to have a primary cause (such as interdiction or CAS etc), I'm fairly sure that wasn't always the case.

There's a strong historical argument that states the 8th. airforce buffs were used explicitly to draw up the LW into furballs so the Little friends could dispatch them; the primary target of the raid being in fact of secondary importance to clearing the skies of the luftwaffe prior to D day.

[Kweassa]

if you make claim to flying realisticly or "historicly" in AH then.... Unless you are a furballer
you are a pretentious, devious blowhard who is..... wrong.

 There is something called "abstraction". We put some of the facts and truths  constituting a certain phenomenon and abstract it into simple form best suited to explaination of how that phenomenon came to pass.

 This is natural with all cases of perhaps most everything we try to analyze. To put it in the way you have quoted is like saying:

 "AH is nowhere near realistic since the non-linear aspects of chaotic phenomena of air turbulence is not modeled within"

 We take whatever we can into our perception of reality. For some, the "funness" of reality needs to be more accurate and historically coordinated. For others, just plain ol' "fly and fight", just using a certain amount of reality itself is fun enough to suit them.

 Personally, I am a Strato, and I radically disagree with lazs' idea of what the MA should be, but I don't think I proclaim his idea as something "WRONG".. just different. And I wholeheartedly  expect the same kind of respect of diversity to those who disagree with me.

 Personally, I still believe (naively and idealistically I admit..   )  the differences between the two factors of reality and fun is not at all destined to mutually clash. I hope to believe we are just going through painstaking process of mixing up our mutual tastes and ideas, and from that I believe something even better would emerge from MA.

 As a "Strato", I believe there is someway we can make the strategic and 'historic', 'realistic' aspect of this game fun for every "Quaker" there is. So let's not lose our open-mindedness.

 Cheers.  

[Cobra]

I like donuts.

Cobra

[Sandman]

Originally posted by BlauK:
Why could we not get a separate furball arena without buffs, gvs, field captures etc. Only fighters and maybe just 2 sides and shorter distances to fly between bases and indestructable ack on fields. That arena could have separate fighter stats and scores.
 

There is a place for this in the dueling arena. It has almost everything you ask for. It has three sides, a short trip, but no scores.

Oh hey... it's empty.

[Baddawg]

I play for fun
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Thats the bottom line

[Buzzbait]

S!

Historical 'Furballs' were much more structured than is being suggested here.  Especially in the European Theater during the Battle of Britain and the Battle of Germany.

Aircraft operated in Squadrons and Flights, and attacked as those formations.  The science of airfighting circa 1940-45 was in the bringing to bear of maximum firepower against an opponent.  You didn't dive with one aircraft on an opponent, a flight, or a whole Squadron dived.  Which meant that the intended targets had to evade not one or two sets of guns but 4, 12 or 18.  The smallest normal formation was a pair.

The Germans originated the technique of the Rotte and Schwarm, as well as the formation attack, and they practiced it throughout the war, albeit with less efficiency in '44 and '45.

If you read the accounts of the British pilots who faced them in '41 and '42 when they were at the peak of their efficiency you can see how they fought:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(From 38 victory Ace Johnnie Johnson's "Wing Leader"  The 'Dogsbody' referred to is Douglas Bader's code name)

"Dogsbody from Smith.  109's above.  Six o'clock.  About twenty five or thirty."
"Well done.  Watch em and tell me when to break."
I can see them.  High in the sun, and their prescence only betrayed by the reflected sparkle from highly polished windscreens and cockpit covers.
"They're coming down, Dogsbody.  Break Left."  And round to port we go, with Smith sliding out below Bader and Cocky and me above so that we cover each other in this steep turn.  We curve around and catch a glimpse of four baffled 109's climbing back to join their companions, for they can't stay with us in a turn.  The keen eyes of Smith saved us from a nasty smack that time.
"Keep turning Dogsbody, more coming down."  from Cocky.
"O.K.  We might get a squirt this time," rejoins Bader.  What a man I think, what a man!
The turn tightens and in my extreme position on the starboard side I'm driving my Spitfire through a greater radius of curve than the others and falling behind.  I kick on hard bottom rudder and skid inwards, down and behind the leader.  More 109's hurtle down from above and section of four angle in from the starboard flank.  I look round for other Spitfires but there are none in sight.  The four of us are alone over Lille.
"Keep turning.  Keep turning."  (From Bader)  "They can't stay with us."  And we keep turning, hot and frightened and a long way from home.  We can't keep turning all bloody day, I think bitterly.
Cocky has not reformed after one of our violent breaks.  I take his place next to Bader and the three of us watch the Messerschmidts, time their dives and call the break into their attacks.   The odds are heavily against us.
We turn across the sun and I am on the inside.  The blinding light seems only two feet above Bader's cockpit and if I drop further below or he gains a little more height, I shall lose him.  Already his Spitfire has lost its colour and is only a sharp black silhouette, and now it has disappeared, swallowed up by the sun's fierce light.  I come out of the turn and am stunned to find myself alone in the Lille sky.
The Messerschmidts come in close for the kill.  At this range their camoflauge looks dirty and oil stained, and one brute has a startling black and white spinner.  In a hot sweat of fear I keep turning and turning, and the fear is mingled with an abject humiliation that these bastards should single me out and chop me at their leisure.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Johnson was lucky enough to survive this episode, and in fact shot down one opponent.  But from the vividness of his memories, it is obvious he never forgot the terror of being the target of a structured attack.

[dtango]

Buzzbait <S>.  A man with a heart for historical accuracy.  Great post.  You could feel the Johnson's fear there.  Good info RE:fighter section attacks.

[lazs1]

buzz.. I agree.   The melees were as you describe.  one side or the other most often  started with an alt advantage but they didn't just B&Z... they ended up mixing it up in... a furball of 10, 20 or hundred planes.

I care little for the motive of a melee... I am not here to recreate the motive.   I have plenty of books on air combat and they do indeed dissagree on motive for ac.   some sorties were indeed to simply find other fighters and shoot em down.... The vast weight of evidence seems to point to the fact that the bombers had very little effect on the war effort other than to force the LW to fite and hence, be destroyed.  but motive is not important to me... results are.

Nothing I have done in AH comes even close to recreating the flavor, and confusion of WWII ac than a big furball with 2 or three squaddies all on RW together.   The radio (RW) sounds like the radios of harried pilots in meeles of WWII..  

I don't see how you can get that by jumping from one gun positin to the other to the oilots seat to the roadkill norden and bombing the targets we have...   i don't see how you can get that by lone wolfing B&Z from one base to the other... I don't see how you can get that with a ballet troupe of 3-4 mustangs.

so name me something that you "historical" types do that captures the flavor of WWII air combat.
lazs

[AN]

lazs1:
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so name me something that you "historical" types do that captures the flavor of WWII air combat.
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I remember one of my first historical sorties, flying a P51 over northern Germany.  I got separated from my squad in a quick furball, then found myself alone in the sky with a low 109.  Figuring myself a hot-shot pilot I engaged, sure of the quick kill, but almost as quickly found myself going to the defensive and unable to get away.  This was one good pilot!  As I was about to make my peace with the world, another P-51 shows up, and blows away the 109 on my 6.

I remember flying an F4F on patrol at Guadalcanal.  My flight leader called out a group of low zeros and took the flight diving in to attack.  I was a little slow to start the dive, and ended up behind the rest of the squad.  As the Wildcats made their passes, the Zeros were alert and turned and dodged well.  One Zero, frustrated by the slashing attack tried to fire at one of my squaddies, leaving himself a perfect target for my Wildcat as I pulled the trigger and blew him away.

I remember being out hunting over Northern Africa in a 109 with my flight leader during '42.  We saw a low Hurricane who I found out later had just been damaged in a big fight, and was trying to find his way home.  My flight leader let me make the attack, and although the Hurricane made a hard break turn, I was able to hold with him just enough to get a few hits, and down he went.

I remember flying a La5 at the battle of Kursk.  After a long hard battle in which I had claimed two more kills (my 6th and 7th without being shot down), I found a squadmate and we made our way home.  While landing, I came in too fast and killed myself through pure stupidity.

I remember flying a Stuka during the Battle of Britain.  Our flight approached its target at 10k feet from the east, and went screaming down in our dives on an enemy airfield.  We were attacked by a flight of Spitfires on egress, and most of the flight was destroyed.  I was the only one to bring my plane home that day.

I remember flying a B17 on a massive, unescorted daylight raid deep into Germany.  Not only my squad of B-17s, but (I think) 5 squads of B-17s.  We were attacked by several different waves of 190s on the way to the target, but luckily I wasn't hit.  As we were leaving the target area, I watch our flight leader fall away down behind us.  We kept on, with 190s attacking constantly.  Slowly, my flight started to become unglued as more B-17s were damaged, then started to fall behind, then were swarmed by 190s when they fell too far behind the protection of the other B-17s guns.  Finally, in our flight, there was just me at the front, Cowboy, who was trailing smoke was with me, and many 190s behind.  Cowboy couldn't keep up and I was faced with the dilemma of throttling back to stay with him, or to just keep going.  I knew my death wouldn't help Cowboy any, so I kept going.  Soon he fell victim to the FWs, and I was to be next!  But before the 190s could close, I made it to the coast, and many flights of Spitfires to escort me home.

Damn, this is turning into a wall of text, and I have many more to go!  Oh well.

Of course, this is all just a small taste of what has happened to me during AW Scenarios.  And I would love for it to happen all again in AH scenarios.  Maybe the TODs are going to be as much or more fun.
 
And also, of course, this has nothing to do with the MA.  I just wanted to try to make the point that 'historical' air combat is why I'm here.  The MA can be a lot of fun, but if it weren't for at least the hope of a good scenario in the future, I would have left months ago.

However, when I'm in the MA, I just wanna furball!

anRky

[StSanta]

Ok, here's my beef with furballs. Or my overall view.

I like good fights. I like good fights  where ya meet the enemy, engange the enemy and either win or lose, and that's it.

In 9./JG 54 the standard procedure was to find a fight away from the main friendlies and *in between airbases*. That way, there would be no running to acks, and reinforcement would be a few minutes away for both sides.

Even that didn't work out too well. You'd fight, kill the enemy, have a couple of high ones pop in, kill them, have another two or more come in, shoot down the guy you shot down first again, and eventually, you'd be overcome by the continuously spawning pilots.

The closer you get to an airfield, the more prevealent it is.

In Ah, you just don't get many of the 4v4 alost co alt meetings. You meet some planes, then behind them some very hi, below them some very low. All with distance in time and position.

I LOVE when I meet squads when flying - cooperation and lots of *thinking* needed - actually outsmarting several guys. In a furball, the tactics for a wingie is simply: if you have an opportunity, shoot the guy who is trying to shoot your wingie - simply because there's continuously streaming in fighters.

I love the "limited number of planes, no ack running" fights - whether I lose or win.

Spawning all the time from two adjacent fields and shooting down in the same mission the same guy three times in three minutes is fun, but not as rewarding as the other kind of fight.

My opinions only. I realize that I'm in a minority.

[lazs1]

an.. i didn't know we had f4f's..  look, some of the descriptions are about.... furballs.  One, the 51 is about the rare event when 1 plane each (from each side) got seperated from the furball and ended up fighting each other... some of your other examples are about lone wolf hunting or finding a lone wolf that was extremely rare if not completely wrong so far as history goes..

What is apparent is that you got a lot out of those encounters.   They had an immersive "feel" that you enjoyed.   that is fine but... it still doesn't make them any more realistic or "historic" than what I described less in most, if not every case.  

If "historical" planesets are the most important thing to you then you have a slight point but... so far as the actual combat... the fur is still more like the majority of the actual combat of WWII.

Fact is... nobody flies around in a historic manner.   it doesn't matter how historic you make the plane sets all you are doing is trading the slight "history" of axis vs allied for the huge problem of lack of variety or parity.   In a 24 hr arena this would (and does) get old real quick.
lazs

[lazs1]

santa.. i think most of the furballs we have are not much more than 4 v 4.  my squad usually leaves when they die or run out of fuel or ammo.  We seem to run into a lot of groups of cons that happen to be.... another squad.  sure.. the fites are low and not really condusive to LW planes but a lot of fun and very immersive none the less.

I also see nothing wrong with running to the ack.   In reality you would run to a cloud but that hasn't worked out perfectly in AH.  Ack is fine.   Most would not chase a lone fighter into his own ack umbrella.   WWII fites did not allway end with a victor.  many times escape became the end result.  

In furs i try to help squaddies first and foremost then drag for squaddies then do what i can for the green guys.  Seems realistic enough for me.   I don't care about respawn... if it get's too heavy or I get low on fuel or ammo it is simply time to bug out... seems "historic" enough to me.

I like killing a spit or a nik  or a lag or a 109 equally and get no more or less immersed whichever I fite and or kill.   I do dread the mind numbing sameness of axis vs allied.
lazs

[AN]

lazs1:
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[QB]an.. i didn't know we had f4f's..  
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Um, lazs, all those descriptions were events that happened in *AW* Scenarios.  

I really miss Scenarios.

anRky

[Buzzbait]

S! Lazs

Sorry to disappoint you again.

The types of furballs which happen in the MA do not resemble historical furballs at all.

Pilots in the MA do not fly team tactics in the furballs.  There is no wingman behind you, holding position and watching your six.

In Real Life a solo pilot was extraordinarily vulnerable in air combat.  There was no way he could watch his own tail and focus in on killing a target at the same time.  You HAD to have the second pair of eyes watching for you.

In addition, well trained pilots avoided 'furball' enviroments.  There were too many variables, too many aircraft to watch, too many possible ways to die.

You made your attack pass, perhaps followed through a few turns and if you didn't get your kill quickly, you broke from the action and reformed with your wingman or your flight.

There is a reason that the single most successful pilot of WWII survived all the combats he took part in.  Luck, but also his technique.  Hartmann used four little words to sum up his method:

SEE

DECIDE

ATTACK

BREAK


See:  Know what is going around you.  Know where all your opponents are.  See them before they see you.

Decide:  Plan your attack so it is on the best target and set it up in such a way you have an escape route.

Attack:  Obvious what is going on here.

Break:  Most important to his longterm survivability, he didn't hang around.  Whether or not he was successful on the first pass, he got out of Dodge.  Got separation and himself and his wingman, (he never lost a wingman) to a secure spot where he could begin the process again.

Furballs are populated by soon to be dead people.  Either in this furball or the next.

[lazs1]

buzz... not disapointed but you seem to be looking at air combat in WWII from the unique perspective of german forces only.  hartman was in a target rich environment with low flying ground support oriented and low (for the most part) skilled pilots for enemies.   He allmost allways started with an alt advantage.  

In large melees you often lost your wingman just like in AH.   You did not just leave the  melee and your friends because it was too confusing or not the fite of your choice.  Once you are engaged in a melee or fur in AH it very much resembles the furs in WWII.

Soo.. my point remains... the furball dynamics once you are in combat are far more realistic than every other type of air combat that I have seen in AH.   If everyone fought like hartman... then we would all go to whatever max alt is in whatever is the max alt plane (ta152?) and..... hide from each other.   I don't believe this is very fun nor do I think it takes very much skill..The reason hartman was able to do what he did (besides enormous skill) was because the enemy had "missions", things they had to do.   they were, as I said ground support oriented and that was far more important than loosing planes to a few germans.   hartman fought in exactly the right way for his situation...

That situation does not exist in AH and shouldn't.   the only type of air combat worth duplicating is the melee.    Lone wolf dueling or lone wolf festabriaing is fine... got nothing against it... for other people... but it is not in the least "realistic"..

so... what are/should we be doing that is more "realistic" or "historical" than the fur/melee?
lazs

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]