Realism versus gameplay

[AKSWulfe]

Exactly Straffo... I don't remember the exact quote, but the reason Richtofen painted his plane and his entire Flying Circus was in wild colors was because it didn't matter what color your plane is, it's still easy to see moving against the sky or ground.

It might not appear that way in black and white photos or clips, but the little footage of color air combat I've seen, it's not exactly hard to see planes moving against the terrain.
-SW

[AKSWulfe]

Possi, if all of the FM aren't ready... then why are you still here spewing rediculous notions that it is more realistic? If the FMs aren't right, then it ain't exactly realistic... now is it?

You want to know what's unrealistic? The planes bob and weave on every axis in Il-2. Unless there are winds, or thermals, this will not happen. Since Il-2 does not model either, then that is simply another fudged effect.

As far as icons, Il-2 has 'em. Most of the servers I've played on had them on. But that's besides the point, I thought I told you a long time ago that games are scale replicas of the real thing. So you are playing on a very small scale, do you honestly believe you can't see things further and with more detail in the real world than you can on a computer game???
-SW

[Possi]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Possi, if all of the FM aren't ready... then why are you still here spewing rediculous notions that it is more realistic? If the FMs aren't right, then it ain't exactly realistic... now is it?

You want to know what's unrealistic? The planes bob and weave on every axis in Il-2. Unless there are winds, or thermals, this will not happen. Since Il-2 does not model either, then that is simply another fudged effect.

As far as icons, Il-2 has 'em. Most of the servers I've played on had them on. But that's besides the point, I thought I told you a long time ago that games are scale replicas of the real thing. So you are playing on a very small scale, do you honestly believe you can't see things further and with more detail in the real world than you can on a computer game???
-SW

In AH the need Icons becouse there can all fly the same Plane, also the Graphik is not so good like in IL-2.
The FM in IL-2 on this Time is more Realistic that in AH and this is Fact, you can say what you want you cant change it, what real Pilots say
If you think AH got the Best FM, it´s on you, not my Prob, i can life with that. Nice Day

[MANDOBLE]

If the real guns were able to score hits at 1000 yards, so be it. But real guns also get enormous dispersion due prolonged fire aswell as jams, hi-G shots also had that effect. The sprayers are sprayers for 1000 yards or for 200 yards ...

[Tac]

Don, go ahead and turn off the icons when you're chasing a con and you get inside d1.0

And then tell me you still have the same accuracy you have when you got the icons on. And please, do try deflection shots, not straight 6 shots.

[AKSWulfe]

In the Combat Theater people can fly for Germany or Britain, depending on the setup, Russia or Germany, Japan or America, or America & Britain & Germany... There the icons are short, not off, because no icons simply is not realistic. It may be harder, but it's not realistic. Nothings really realistic on a PC, the premise of a computer is simulation. Does AH simulate combat well? Of course, 400+ paying customers can't be wrong. Likewise for Il-2.

Did I ever say the AH FM was better than Il-2? No, you said the Il-2 FM is more realistic which is simply not true. Both have their strong points, and both have their weak points. The degredation of engines as they go higher isn't modelled well in Il-2, it is in AH. The engines overheat in 5 minutes at full throttle in Il-2, well the 190 engine could run at WEP for 10 minutes before it had to be shut off without risking engine melt down. The whole engine management is a facade in Il-2, the idea that an engine would overheat in 5 minutes at full throttle is beyond laughable since it's in many accounts of real world pilots that they would run full throttle for a good 20+ minutes in a dogfight.

So to say Il-2 is more realistic is simply not true. It may do some things better than AH, but AH does some things better than it.

As far as graphics, when Il-2 hits the MMP department and can display objects with more detail further like AH, then you'll see why AH has somewhat simplified graphics. Not to mention it's 1/20th the size of Il-2.

So believe what you want, the facts are there. You can believe real world pilots all you want, the data and figures are all over the place indicating the aircraft in AH are very close to hitting their real world counterparts... just like in Il-2. Very close and dead on, however, aren't the same thing. You'll never get dead on with a PC.
-SW

[Mathman]

Il-2!  It is not only a sim, but the world savior!  That's right folks!  Il-2 will end world hunger, completely rid the world of terrorism in all its forms, and cure cancer!  The best part though, is it can also be used as a dessert topping!

 Just wanted to add that I think Il-2 is a great GAME just like AH is a great game.  I have both and spend more time in AH than with Il-2.  To each their own.

[Wilbus]

Actually, even though planes are easier to spot when they are flying and moving fast, they are not easy to spot against the ground when they are camoflauged good. Those of you who fly in real life know that even the civilian planes, which are usually white and shiny, can be difficult to see, and you know they are there.

Spot a well camoflauged plane against the ground is difficult, take a look at Desert camoflauged 109's, they are one with the ground, they are of course easier to see in flight but still very hard. Icons should be there, I think it is funnier without but most people don't.

Remove laser range finder and it's a great step on the way of making it both more fun and more realistic. Estimating range is one of the most difficult things you can do in the air.

[Furious]

Math,

You prefer to play AH only because you are an Üntermensch.  If you were cultured and superior you would fly Il2.

Subhumans prefer sissy, watered down, pretend flying games.


phfft.


F.

[Mathman]

Remove laser range finder and it's a great step on the way of making it both more fun and more realistic. Estimating range is one of the most difficult things you can do in the air.

I wouldn't mind the "laser range finder" going away, I think that with the limitatons that trying to represent a 3D world on a 2D monitor require some kind of a range indicator, even if it a bar or circle thing like in WW2OL.  Doesn't have to be gone, but it doesn't have to be a perfect readout either.  Something in the middle would be good.

[AKSWulfe]

Range should be done away with.... except when the bandit is in your gunsight.

I don't know of any airforce that at one time or another didn't have atleast a ring gunsight with set notches to indicate various distances for certain wing spans.
-SW

[Charon]

Here we go again. This time I ran out to the garage, opened a few boxes and pulled out a few manuals from my instructor days, specifically: FM 23-65 Browning Machine Gun Caliber .50 HB, M2 -- since my memory of events 10 years in the past is obviously open to error.

I clearly remember engaging targets at 800m with a loose mounted, open iron-sighted single M2, usually mounted on the commander’s copula of an M-113. I don't recall any formal qualification (a la Tank Tables), however, I did find some good ole "Task, Conditions and Standards" for engaging popup targets on a formal machinegun range with the M2.

They include:

Task -- Engage multiple double E-type silhouettes at 400, 500 and 1,000 meters while wearing the protective mask (nice little handicap there!). Conditions -- blah blah 400, 500, 1000 protective mask bla blah... Standards -- gunner must impact one burst on each target within 45 seconds (while limited to 42 rounds)

or,

The same conditions using the AN/TVS- night sight (a handicap IMO)

or,

Gunner must impact one burst on the 1,000 meter target within 25 seconds (with only 14 rounds total to work with, leaving only two ranging bursts, perhaps three)

or,

As far as aerial engagements (with that handlebar deal I never saw in use) -- Superelevation (compensation made for the pull of gravity on the projectile) is another consideration for some weapons, but the caliber .50 MG projectile is basically flat out to 800 meters. Therefore, the gunner does not have to worry about it.

Now is a pintle mounted M2 different from 6 .50s hard mounted and zeroed in a fighter plane with an optical sight that helps in range estimation? Yes, and not in a positive way IMO in areas ranging from the sight picture to vibrations and limited ammo requirements for qualification. Were the targets moving? Well, no... but then they are providing about as much relative movement as most sky jousters or runners who fly the wings level, steady extension. Again, IMO the infrequent (and hardly game impacting) but noticeable hits at 1,000 plus meters are due to lazy extensions and experienced virtual gunners. Set convergence to a historical 400m max limit and these "issues" would evaporate entirely. Again, IMO.

Charon

BTW: on a personal note, the ATT broadband techs will be out to check the wiring setup in my new house tomorrow, so I may actually be able to fly more than 10 minutes without a "host connection lost" message popping up. First time since the New Year (please let it be solved!) Hope to see more of you all soon in the unfriendly skies.

[pakqua]

OK.guys .I read all the post but am I confused..you talking about the icons on the map ? Errr ya got to get vis on your enemy{duh} ..LOL  only thing I find hard(AW  pilot here be nice) after actually getting a somewhat feel for FR the actual plane size is different and I've been 300 and less away and miss alot. In aw we did have a "hit bubble " which helped. Seems with AH and in AW many things determine success but I found 2 that matter to me the most. Of coure is your connection which varies greatly from person to person and your Video. Thats one reason I liked the hit bubble it kind of evened things out a little. Like I said you could out manuever someone get on their 6 and miss like hell all the while there bud slams your six when 1st enmy shoulda died long time ago.. excuse my AW mentality. After 6 yrs playing it hard to adjust.. Many have different views on AH concerning correctness and trying to get asa much FR as possible. I respect that. But for not the die hard (i want to fight like a real plane) the rest kind of find this difficult..LIke HO's Suk.. in AW you needed to really rail a pilot HO to even slightly hurt them. in aH seems my 38 is a beacon for HO's..so I dont fly it...Ho's were considered dweebish in AW.. I know I know what your gonna say...well anyway and watch out fer my mossie ! TY PAK

[Cherlie]

Well I saw a interview with Galland about a month ago.  HE said that he use to dive on the enermy plane and when the plane filled up his aimer, he use to pull the trigger.

CharlieB

[blutic]

"I'm with you fellers"

Blutik