Author Topic: What's happening in Jenin? (Read 2491 times)

Dowding · « **on:** April 09, 2002, 05:21:51 PM »

Aid held up outside Jenin

14,000 refugees + Israeli Army - media accountability = ?

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2002, 05:24:22 PM »

seems like both sides are shooting there... or am I misunderstanding the term "fighting"?

AKDejaVu

Udie · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2002, 05:28:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKDejaVu
seems like both sides are shooting there... or am I misunderstanding the term "fighting"?

AKDejaVu

Obviously you don't understand the word "fighting" or "war". Those words are now defined as the Palestinians get to bomb and murder as many Isreali's as they want and Isreal should turn the other cheek and not seek out the terrorist where they live.......

LOL Dowding, media accountability. I think that's the first time I've seen somebody actually try and use those words in the same sentence.....

Dowding · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2002, 05:28:23 PM »

I'm talking more in terms of the civilians caught in the middle... or am I misunderstanding the term 'refugee camp'?

Udie - wait a minute. So the Palestinians do actually own that land they're living on, as part of a Palestinian State? Because I'm afraid that's would need to be recognised if any 'war' was being pursued. In which case, aren't the Israelis an occupational force and therefore fair game? And if it's 'total' war, with nationhood at stake, at which point do civilians enter the equation?

The notion that this is a war is as ridiculous as the concept that Israeli citizens can be justified as targets.

I'm just interested in what's happening over there. Unlike you, Udie, I'd rather get my news from reputable media sources, not IDF press releases.

That's what I mean by media accountability - the presence of a camera can make people think twice about their actions.

Some of the greatest evils the world has ever seen have been perpetrated behind closed doors, away from international scrutiny. The holocaust just being one.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2002, 05:41:17 PM »

Its sad that people can get caught in the middle of all this dowding... that much is true. I guess I just don't understand the point of your initial post.

AKDejaVu

Dowding · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2002, 05:57:05 PM »

See my last post.

The Israelis (or more accurately, the leadership) seem to be ostracising themselves from the very people with whom they can do without.

Udie · « **Reply #6 on:** April 09, 2002, 05:59:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
I'm talking more in terms of the civilians caught in the middle... or am I misunderstanding the term 'refugee camp'?

no you're not. It sucks for them to be sure they are there through no wish of their own. It sucks and I wouldn't stand for it if I were in their position. I'm waiting for the day that they finally realize that suicide bombings and acts of terrorism is only going to keep them where they are at.

Udie - wait a minute. So the Palestinians do actually own that land they're living on? Because I'm afraid that's would need to be recognised if any 'war' was being pursued. In which case, aren't the Israelis an occupational force and therefore fair game? And if it's 'total' war, with nationhood at stake, at which point do civilians enter the equation?

Well maybe they should ask Jordan, Egypt or Syria what happened to their land. Look at the map and it looks like they lost more land to arabs than they did to Isreal.

I'm just interested in what's happening over there. Unlike you, Udie, I'd rather get my news from reputable media sources, not IDF press releases. That's what I mean by media accountability - the presence of a camera can make people think twice about their actions.

hehe nice try, but that pic I posted the other day was the only time I've ever been to that or any jewish media site, except for one that I can't remember the name of (David Horowitz writes a column at their site). The media around the world sucks for the most part. They all put thier spin on it. All of them. I will say that from all the news sources I read that the western seem to be the best, but not by much.

Some of the greatest evils the world has ever seen have been perpetrated behind closed doors, away from international scrutiny. The holocaust just being one.

Correct, and I'm not saying that Isreal should not be scrutinized over this. BUT the one thing I have yet to see anybody on the palestinian side of things say that Isreal has the right to defend itself. That means war. It may mean a war against civilians if it's civilians that are committing the terrorism. Arafat has been asked, begged and pleaded to do ONE THING. Get on the radio in Arabic and tell the suicide bombers to stop. Period. If he had done that he would not be captive in his office now. If he had not been in power for the past 20+ years Palestine would most likely be a country now. Look at Lebenon, oops you better not, you may find out they treat the Palestinians just as bad as the Jews do.

The truely sad part of this whole mess is that the Palestinian people are pawns to the rest of the world, especialy to the arabs. Too much hypocracy on every side of this fight for it ever to end up good.

Eagler · « **Reply #7 on:** April 09, 2002, 08:29:46 PM »

this is what's happening;

Palestinians Ambush Israeli Soldiers, Killing 13

the Palestines create the war in the middle of their "civilians", then cry out when Israel's retaliation results in the death of "innocents".
As they do not value their own son's and daughters lives ( ie, great honor to have your 17 -20 year old son/daughter martyr themselves

), why would you think they'd care if their actions resulted in numerous causualities of Palestine strangers ..

then again if they think dying is the best thing, they get to see Allah sooner, I say help the nutcases get there as fast as possible..

Why isn't a faction in Palestine who are against the bombers and violence speaking out? Are they afraid of being killed by their own counrtymen for talking sense? Is there not a faction in all of Palestine against the elimination of Israel? It would seem not ...

Staga · « **Reply #8 on:** April 09, 2002, 08:52:44 PM »

All I can say is WTG !

Maybe Palestinians found out that it is IDF which is occupying their land and not Israeli civilians

Voss · « **Reply #9 on:** April 09, 2002, 10:07:23 PM »

Palestine is full of hypocrisy. Arabs are not supposed to gamble, yet there is a casino in Jerusalem. Jordan has 60% of Palestinian territory, yet Israel carries the blame (must be because they are kind and let Palestinians have access to life giving water). Palestinians are engaged in suicide attacks, yet Israeli's are the terrorists.

Palestinian terrorists will be vanquished. Arafat? I think OUR justice system will bring him down.

-tronski- · « **Reply #10 on:** April 09, 2002, 10:29:34 PM »

Last I saw the West Bank is an occupied territory. In WW2 French/Yugoslav etc. resistance fighters attacked the Germans at any oppotunity and are considered heroes. Yet the palenstinian fighters are terrorists because they hit the Isreali homeland?
Asking Palestinians to accept occupation is asking the french people to like german occupation.

Quote

Why isn't a faction in Palestine who are against the bombers and violence speaking out? Are they afraid of being killed by their own counrtymen for talking sense?

The french used to call them collaborators. Afghnistan shows perfectly well what happens to anyone who 'supports' the other side.

Quote

Palestine is full of hypocrisy. Arabs are not supposed to gamble, yet there is a casino in Jerusalem.

Not every arab is a muslim. Jerusalem is not only inhabited by Arabs, and is administrated by Isreal.

Quote

Jordan has 60% of Palestinian territory, yet Israel carries the blame

The Jordanian army doesn't forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes for Jordanian settlements. Or occupy homes for observation posts. The Jordanian army doesn't shoot stone throwers.

Tronsky

~Caligula~ · « **Reply #11 on:** April 09, 2002, 11:59:18 PM »

Quote

The Jordanian army doesn't forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes for Jordanian settlements. Or occupy homes for observation posts. The Jordanian army doesn't shoot stone throwers.

Go look up somwhere what happened to Arafat and he`s PLO toejamhead buddies in Jordan.
The truth is that even the other arabs hate palestinians,and they don`t wanna have to do anything with them.The only reason they`re backing Arafat is that they hate jews even more.

babek- · « **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2002, 05:33:25 AM »

The truth is that mad dog Sharon failed again.

Only a few days after his stupid invasion against the palestinian territory the next suicide bomber has hit his target and got - from his point of view - his revenge against the israelis.
So the next palestine family is officially celebrating a martyr and crying secretly about the loss of a family member who killed himself and others in a stupid act.

But after the massacres of the israeli hordes in the palestinian cities, after the destruction of so many civilian targets the number of angry young people who are willing to perform suicide attacks must have raised extremely.

So - thanks to the war-criminal Sharon the next round of hate and killing innocents will start.

To think that he could stop a the suicide bombing with military is ridiculous.

Kronos · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2002, 06:13:13 AM »

I'm curious babek,

Quote

To think that he could stop a the suicide bombing with military is ridiculous.

Is Pres. Bush a war criminal in your eyes too?
What do you think we (The US) is using to stop Al Quaeda terrorists?

All in all, I don't think there is a solution to this problem, aside from all out total war. And unfortunately, I think it's heading that way very fast. I hope somehow a solution is found aside from that.

babek- · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2002, 06:55:21 AM »

I cant remember that President Bush had ordered his troops to execute civilians and destroy their civilian buildings systematicly to get new Lebensraum.

So I dont see in him a war criminal.

Sharon on the other side is a war criminal - he cant travel for example to civilized european countries, because there he would be arrested.
Even the tiny Belgium has an arrest order for Sharon because of his war crimes during the Lebanon war where he ordered to bombard refugee-camps and butchering hundreds of women and children.

I am convinced that terrorism could never be destroyed by military actions. The best you can get is a temporaly delay of the next actions but these revenge-actions will come often came often harder, because the anger of the people has been fueled.

Just one example:
When the German Reich dishonered France with the shameful treaty of 1871 the hate of the French against the Germans was raised.
The Politicians failed and the WW1 came. The french military was successful.
When France dishonered the German Reich with the shameful treaty of Versailles the hate of the Germans against France was raised.
Again the Politicians failed and the WW2 came. Now the turn was to the german military.
Mad Dog Hitler ordered that the document of surrender of France has to be made in exactly the train waggon, where the German Reich had to surrender officially in 1918.
This circle of hate was interrupted by great politicians.
France could dictate a new dishonorful peace-treaty for Germany but they didnt.

It was a small wonder and a luck for the French and us Germans that great politicians like deGaulle and Adenauer (and later Mitterand and Kohl) ended the hatred of French and Germans and started a friendship policy.

After centuries of hatred and senseless war I doubt highly that there will be a french-german-war in future.

So the politicians here were succesful - and I can only hope that the Mad Dog in Israel will be replaced by an intelligent politician who cares for the interests of his people, instead of manipulating them.