Author Topic: So what is this "Islam" ?  (Read 1002 times)

Offline Staga

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2002, 07:34:35 AM »
Not if I can do it while I'm at work :)

edit: CH3; Thanks for the interesting link. Looks like it was a bless to Spain when Moors went there and curse when they had to leave.
Nice link
« Last Edit: April 12, 2002, 08:05:30 AM by Staga »

Offline Voss

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2002, 09:33:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)


You bloody fool. Half of Western Europe sided with Hitler during WW2, not to mention the upper hieracrchy of the Catholic church, the leadership of many occupied countries etc. Get a damned clue.

To make out Arabs are inherently untrustworthy is as unjustified as saying all Jews are, say, money-grabbing or any other stereotype you wish to use. It's lunacy of the highest order.


Dowding, I respectfully request you to curb your remarks. I don't think that question deserves the response you gave.

I did not say Arabs were untrustworthy. AND you're wrong. It wasn't anything like half of western Europe. If you believe that you need the clue, pal.

Lunacy of the highest order? Time will tell. If you fall into diplomacy with the Arab Nations, as if they were completely honest, you're gonna get shafted. The Arab Nations do not think like we do (or like you Tommies).

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Offline Nashwan

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2002, 10:17:50 AM »
Quote
There are NO Israeli's living amongst Arabs (outside of Israel). Does that surprise you?

What do you mean by no Israelis?

No Jews?

There are a lot of Jews living in Arab countries.

Offline CyranoAH

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2002, 10:31:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
I would like to hear what our Spanish players thoughts are about Moors and what happened in Spain in those times?


I personally think the were a great influence in those days (at the beginning of the invasion) since they brought with them  mathematics, astronomy, architecture, and science in general.

Let us remember we actually use the numbers brought by the arabs, not the romans or greek.

It is my understanding that the defeat of the moors in Spain marked (not caused) the beginning of the downfall of their advanced civilization (at that time).

It's sad to see that such an illustrated people have gone back to where my country was at THAT time (Holy wars, Religious hatred... yes, I know you were not expecting the Spanish Inquisition :D:D )

Anyway, civilizations come, civilizations go... I wonder who will be "ruling the world" in 500 years... the chinese perhaps?

Daniel

Offline Pepe

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2002, 10:32:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by CH3
Good synopsis of the history of the Sephardic (Spanish) jews can be found Here


Well, it has the value of being the historical chronicle from one side.

The webpage is not bad, but still have some innaccuracies, and it is biased.

Jut to point our a few.

Jews were expelled from Spain before the Sefardi "Diaspora". They were twice under the Visigothic rule, in VIIth century, after a quite long prosecution and after being accused of traition to the state (which was true in one case). Then ones remaining were forced to converse to Catholicism within one year. And while the defeat of Visigoths by Tarik's troops is due to the traition of Witiza's sons (Witiza claimed the Kingdom for him, and his sons commanded part of Don Rodrigo's army), the quick progression of moors is often explained by Jew's attitude, prone to muslim tolerance, and willing to get rid of Visigoths, they often opened cities' doors to the invader. (bear in mind the importance of Jew community)

What muslim regime achived in Spain is no less than amazing. By the time of Cordoba's Califate, their empire was (in cultural terms) the world's most advanced (save, perhaps, China). Science flourished there like in no other place by that time. But the idillic picture is far away from truth. Moors committed atrocities, on a regular basis. They excecise extreme discrimination against Chatholics, and were only tolerant at the beginning, for one single reason: only Catholics had to pay taxes. And they were even more with Catholic's renegades: Muladíes. Almanzor was famous for burning "indifel" boods, so no tolerance here, too. They were certainly more tolerant with Jews, as far as they were not perceived as enemies (ironic, isn't it?)

Catholic "Reconquista" (conquest) was not Catholic's people's merit. It was muslim's demerit. Cordoba Califate disintegrated into several small "Kingdoms" (Reinos de Taifas), most of the times fighting one against the other. The war between muslims and catholics was not, most of the time, an open war, but very long periods of peace, with mixing in the borders, and furious battles in between. Yes, by that time, Catholic were a bunch of intolerant acultural guys, whose main doctrine was getting rid of the opposite (another irony)

On the expulsion itself, not only religious hate was the reason. During centuries of muslim dominancy, Jews were notably dealing with muslim agains catholics, catholic against muslims, african against spanish muslims, etc., making a very unreliable group. And catholics rememered that, and their traition to Visigoth catholics.

The paragraph "Despite obvious fabrication, the story of the "Nino de La Guardia" continues to be taught as factual in high schools in Spain to this day, and it is found in the 70 volume Spanish Encyclopedia Espasa Calpe. It therefore remains a basis for fueling popular antisemitism in Spain. Details and names were subsequently added to the story over time and a church consecrated to the "nino santo"." is absolute BS. Makes me doubt seriously on the author's qualification and knowledge about Spain.

Again, not a bad attempt to explain a thousand years of history in hardly a thousand words, but it's biased and far too simplistic. Spain history has never been (probably like the rest of the world) a case of good guys and bad guys.

Cheers,

Pepe

Offline -sudz-

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2002, 10:41:19 AM »
Good original post - it's good to return to the definitions when I keep seeing ignorant posters use Muslim, Arabic, and Terrorist as if they were interchangable words.

I would have touched on the differences between Sunni and toejame muslims, though, since it's the current state of affairs and not the fresh idealism of a just-birthed religion.

As far as individual followers of a religion go - who is to blame for the sins of the church members?  The member or the whole religeon?  Before you answer that, review the Catholic church's latest bout with pedephilia.

-sudz

Offline midnight Target

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2002, 11:16:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats all fine and dandy Staga but the fact is the f***ers were dealing with are all muslims, and they call themselves jihadis- themselves not we.

So it's a problem within Islam. You can wax all poetic about how "peaceful" islam is supposed to be yet all we see from that religion today is violence and religios nutcases blowing themselves up.  And this comes from a guy who thinks the Israelis are are nearly on a nazi level against the Palestenians.

There is a problem with islam today, they used to be cultured, moderate in views especially concerning other religions and generally well behaved. They are not so today.


Saying there is a problem with Islam based on the actions of a minority of wackos is the same as saying there is a problem with Christianity based on the actions of the KKK. Voilence is not "all we see", unless that is all you want to see.

And saying "but the fact is the f***ers we're dealing with are all muslims" to make a point about the religion is about as intelligent as catching a bunch of trout in a lake and jumping to the conclusion that all fish must be trout!

now...cut it out!!! Ya knuckelhead:)

Offline Voss

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2002, 12:42:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

What do you mean by no Israelis?

No Jews?

There are a lot of Jews living in Arab countries.


Nashwan, what is your definition of the word 'is?'

When does 'no' mean 'NO?'

America has Jews of its own, and America has Israeli's (with dual citizenship) visiting all the time.

Not all Jews are Israeli's. I think that's plain enough, but if you think the Jews living in Arab countries will live in peace forever; well let's just say you better not tell America's media where they are.

Reading. Comprehension. When will the two meet?

Offline Dowding

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2002, 12:48:53 PM »
If you truly believe your original statement, then you are a fool Voss.

My point was that many countries/nationalities/ethnic groups sided with Hitler during WW2. Yet they are our Allies now and the world seems to do lots of business with them. Your statement was not only irrelevant, but an unneccessary slur on Arabs. I didn't need to put words into your mouth - they were perfectly descernible.

As for 'half of Western Europe' - depends how you define the term. You can count Austria, Italy and Vichy France for a start. Then there's the puppet governments installed in every country. Add certain 'neutral' countries who helped supply the nazi war machine over the entire length of the war. I'd say my description was more or less on the mark.

Arabs don't think like Westerners? Well, how many dirty deeds were committed by Europeans (and Americans) over the years? How much back-stabbing was done in the name of Imperialism for instance? Has any Arab nation set-up and then run the machinery to murder 6 million people?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline midnight Target

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2002, 12:51:43 PM »
Quote
There are Arabs living in peace in Israel. Israeli's allow them full citizenship, allow them to vote in elections, and treat them as one of themselves. Does that surprise you?

There are NO Israeli's living amongst Arabs (outside of Israel). Does that surprise you?


Hardly a lack of comprehension there...You compared ARABS to ISRAELIS, not Egyptions to Israelis, or Jordanians to Israelis, so it is only logical to assume you were talking ethnicity or religion instead of nationality.

Writing. Comprehension.  when will they meet?

Offline Cabby44

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2002, 02:34:25 PM »
Quote:


"Has any Arab nation set-up and then run the machinery to murder 6 million people?"

Well, with the help of that, ummm "half of Europe"  you mentioned, and their support and appeasement of the Arabs,  it could very well happen.......

Cabby

Offline Voss

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2002, 04:00:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Has any Arab nation set-up and then run the machinery to murder 6 million people?


Syria comes to mind immediately. Perhaps, not the same methodology, but nevertheless as effective. Of course, it's their own people. Maybe that nullifies the result in your mind?

Offline Dowding

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2002, 07:44:05 PM »
Last time I heard, German jews were murdered too, so that kind of nullifies your point.

I stand by my point, let's not look at Western civilisation with rose tinted specs while criticising Arab actions. At the end of the day both cultures have the potential to do 'bad' things. And that potential has been realised time and time again.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Elfenwolf

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2002, 07:57:31 PM »
...And once again, those Vultures of the BBs- Caligula, Voss and GUNHERZ- pounce on an innocious thread titled "Islam-The Religion" and immediately turn it into yet another thread on who is killing who in the Mideast and why they are doing it-as if there aren't enough threads already about that crap blaming everybody from the Canadians to my home boys, Icy Hot Stuntaz.

In the words of Moe- Spread out. Islam is the most difficult of the three major religions to follow (sorry Buddha-Boy but Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion, and plus you pray for material comforts rather than enlightenment- tacky tacky tacky) and the followers of Islam I've had the pleasure of meeting aren't wild-eyed fanatics plotting on killing all of us Fighting Whities. Instead they're my neighbors, people I work with, and people I can relate to because the issues that affect me also affect them.

This Thread is about Islam and what I see to be the common thread that runs through all religions- the commandment against killing each other. I submit that people who are killing each other are not true followers of Judasm, Islam or Christianity. In fact these people are evil because they are willing to allow mothers to endure the deaths of their children for an earthly cause in the name of servitude to God.

So you see, Voss, Gunherz and Caligua, this is the wrong thread for you. We were talking theology, not the justification of why Israel has invaded the West Bank. There's half a dozen threads for you to spew about the vileness of Arabs and your opinions on people of color, so go post over there.

Offline Thrawn

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So what is this "Islam" ?
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2002, 08:36:48 PM »
YA!  Find your own thread ya bums!!  Get the hell out of here!

Holy crap!  It's getting so the liberals can't even find space to breath on this board.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2002, 08:40:13 PM by Thrawn »