Author Topic: @#$&*^ friendly fire  (Read 1057 times)

Offline Thrawn

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2002, 04:15:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Thrawn... you need to calm down and stop taking this so personally.  While you're at it.. please stop acting like judge jury and executioner.  You're not helping anything at all right now.


I'm trying to calm down.   Sorry for venting my frustration on all of you.

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2002, 04:23:45 PM »
cc..

Offline XMSR

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2002, 04:44:47 PM »
There is a military facility near where I live and the military conducts exercises there. Seems like once a month someone is getting killed during training. Sometimes it's a Brit sometimes a Canuk. I also see CNN reporting people getting killed during U.S. exercises so we know it's not a conspiracy.

Hope I don't sound to distant when it comes to death but I have seen to much of it and personally don't care much either way anymore. Either your alive or you not. If you are alive enjoy it whilst you can. If you are not alive then it's a non-issue. The only people you gotta spend energy on are the survivors.

Thrawn I am not a mental health doctor (I should probably seek one out for my own issues)  but unless you personally know one or more of those killed or wounded then I would not like to be around you when someone you are close to does pass on.  I look back on my own ignorance about death and it's place in the scheme of things before anyone close to me died I had no clue where my feelings lay. Now I know. If you have already been there and done that then forgive me for speaking out of turn.

If you have never been there and done that then you will have to wait for it. Kinda like loosing your virginity. No one can describe it to you. It's one of those moments that help shape your thinking and your life.

Just some thoughts.

Sorry for the book.

Cheers!!

Offline XMSR

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2002, 04:47:19 PM »
Sorry I started to type and got called away. I should have looked to see what was new. Good job Thrawn staying calm is where it's at!

Cheers!!

Offline Toad

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2002, 04:50:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Replicant
Toad, the F16 often carries a laser designator therefore a single F16 can aquire and guide a LGB towards a target.


Things may have changed since I was last "familiar" with LGB delivery but....

I'm still thinking that his wingman or someone else had to lase the target while the attacker maneuvered to toss the LGB into the "basket".

I will check on this. Not making a big deal about it but I would like to have the "facts" straight. I think it still "takes" two.. but I'll check.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nefarious

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2002, 05:12:42 PM »
Newer F-16 variants, I beleive carry some type of Pave Knife, Or some sort of Laser designator. I might be confusing it with the flir pod they carry on the side of the jet intake.

There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2002, 06:32:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


Things may have changed since I was last "familiar" with LGB delivery but....

I'm still thinking that his wingman or someone else had to lase the target while the attacker maneuvered to toss the LGB into the "basket".

I will check on this. Not making a big deal about it but I would like to have the "facts" straight. I think it still "takes" two.. but I'll check.


Yep, it really depends on what sort of mission it was on.  As you mention normally one plane would be equipped with a laser designator and then the remaining aircraft within the flight can carry LGBs and not worry about having to aim at target.  However it is unknown whether the second aircraft was carrying a pod or whatever.  Anyway, here's some info you might find interesting....

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-16.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/lantirn.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/n19981103_981668.html

Plus some images:-

http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/f-16-00000009.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/f-16-98904f16lgb.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/phl-0284.jpg

Regards
NEXX

Offline Aaron

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2002, 07:00:02 PM »
Some info for those of you who want to read up.

http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/cdn_casualties/

-Aaron

Offline Buzzbait

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2002, 08:56:42 PM »
S!

The site where this occurred was a training area used by both U.S. and Canadian troops, including U.S. Special Forces.  It was used on a regular basis, weekly at minimum.

The Canadian troops involved were from a highly experienced unit, which had 3 years previous combat experience from Bosnia and Croatia, (Canadian Peacekeepers there had numerous firefights with Serb Militias) as well as recent combat on the 'Whale Back' ridge mission in Afghanistan during which no casualties were suffered although snipers from the unit scored some of the highest kill numbers of any units involved, and in one instance suppressed an Afghan ambush which had taken U.S. Soldiers under fire.  The particular platoon involved were Jump qualified and had extensive night and special forces training.  They were trained specifically in night fighting techniques which emphasize holding fire until targets identified.  The chances of them firing on an aircraft, (in particular a F-16, which has a very distinctive sound) is ZERO.

Someone f*cked up bigtime.

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2002, 09:00:00 PM »
S!

By the way:

The Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry are one of the most distinguished units in the Canadian Army.

They were awarded a Presidential Unit Citation in 1952 by President Eisenhower for their actions in Korea.

After a massive Chicom attack broke the U.S. and S Korean line, and caused a huge hole, they held a hilltop and prevented a breakthrough which threatened to cutoff a U.S. Division.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2002, 10:08:20 PM »
Yep, looks like the new Lantirn pod can designate for its own aircraft weapons.

So, it could have been just one guy.

Now to the ROE and the command responsibility. Like did anyone brief the flight that the training area was going to be "hot" during their mission with friendlies engaged in training?

One would think that coordination would occur given that training is done in an active warzone.

A miserable thing in any event.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Steven

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2002, 10:22:16 PM »
It's a dangerous business.  My condolences.  I hope, at the very least, everyone learns from this.

Offline easymo

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2002, 11:31:49 PM »
"It's a dangerous business."

Indeed.
 
If you consider the number of people that have been hurt, and killed in ordinary hunting accidents it might help put it in perspective. These people were under no stress at all.  There was no chance the deer would shoot back, and yet they still screwed up.

In the past I have related a couple of friendly fire incidents that occurred in my old army unit. Unfortunately they were not that uncommon. Usually they were the result of someone ignoring standing orders. Or just making a bone head move.  I fear this will turn out to be what happened here. At any rate. Try to remember the threat they are all under. Also, frankly, the fact that these men are pumped up to fight. That is exactly what we ask of them.

  At any rate.  Condolences to the Canadians, for the loss of fine men.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2002, 12:00:08 AM by easymo »

Offline miko2d

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2002, 11:58:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
I kinda have a hard time believing that these Canadian troops were firing at the F16... It's not like it could have been mistaken for a jet belonging to the El Quada air force.

Screw up? Or some out of control F16 jocky?


 When you shoot a machinegun, a lot of bullets bounce off the ground and go few hundred yards into the air at a steep trajectory with the tracers still burning - clearly visible at night. A plane finding itself in the middle of a bunch of tracers can easily decide it is fired on.

 miko

Offline midnight Target

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@#$&*^ friendly fire
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2002, 12:18:14 PM »
I asked my co-worker about this (he was a Marine A-4 jock in Nam).

He said that normally a drop into a zone that "may include friendlies" had to be ordered from the ground forward controller. There was no alternative. OTOH this did not apply if the area was held by the enemy.

He then told me of his experience with a FF drop. He napalmed close enough to a Marine unit to make them all look like thay had been to Hawaii. He was in the OC later when he overheard an officer talking about the idiot pilot that nearly got them all killed. The ballsy SOB actually introduced himself to the officer and made his apologies. I guess he knew he would have to take his turn as ground control, and he didn't want any grunts to be holding a grudge.