Can't understand why Bomb accuracy is a needed gameplay concession

[Pepe]

Sorry to initiate another thread on this particular issue, but again and again, when somebody post some complain about buff accuracy / norden sight, the answer splits between the ones in favour of adjusting is to levels somewhere near the real thing, and the ones saying it's a needed gameplay concession. Sorry, but I don't buy the gameplay concession.

It is not a needed gameplay concession if the point is real accuracy would limit buff flying.

The actual problem underlying buff accuracy is the bomb blast radius, the damage inflicted to the ground, and the behaviour of bombsight. If bomb blast/damage model would be (now yes) accurate, the problem of accurate bombing would cure by itself. You do not need to be very accurate when dropping 1k near a flak, panzer or ack. And you are making a LOT of damage to whatever receives the hit, whether it is ack, structure, runway or flat grassy terrain.

Accurate bomb damage model and some realistic bombsight behaviour (gyro sinc time) would make some improvements in gameplay:

• Would allow carpet bombing
• Would allow two kind of different attack on fields: quirurgycal, by means of jabos and small/medium bombs as collateral damages could ruin rnwys, ammo & fuel depots, etc., or massive, by means of buffs, destroying not only structures, but runways, and the ground itself (BIG, durable, craters). This last one would make airfields unusable for a longer time, even for attackers. So CAP would be mandatory for quite a long time, and would "fixate" attacker's resources.
  
• Would finish the current situation where you drop 1k bomb just by a panzer or flakpanzer, you get killed if the GV is a flakpanzer and the GV merrilly goes by.
• Would make Buff current strategy (salvo 1, pass after pass, 25k+ alt) impossible, as it should be.
• Would negate Buff jinking on final approach to target. This would allow fighters to settle adequate attack patterns (now just add some bigger sunglare effect...). The buff has to choose wether to jink and ruin the bombrun, or keep it steady and face the risk.
• Would make Buff job more interesting, in the sense that you would have to put some brain on it.

As it is today, buffing is a no brainer job for me, not a real challenge. No navigation skills, just point-and-click quakeish mood. Note that I am not talking about buff guns, I do think they are needed like they are today if the buff is to be playable at all. Neither on the turning ability of buffs when loaded. But the bombing thing....

I can only see this as it is currently implemented because technically there is no way to make it better. I mean framerate, bandwith, whatever. But no gameplay concession, please.

Cheers,

Pepe

[TheWobble]

Man,
Ive been saying this since i started playing AH.

You will now hear a bunch of crap about how the reason we need the joke bombs is because there are no mass bomber formations and that if you make them realistic nobody will fly them...

Well the way they are now not many people fly them (hmmm)

and as far as there being no mass bomber formations..guess what there are no giant industrial targets that would take mass bombers to dastroy either...hell the frigging CITY can be destroyed COMPLETELY by just 1 lone lancaster

So NO there are no mass formations...but there are also not targets that would require a mass formation to be SEVERLY damaged or destroyed.  

Gameplay concession ot not..bombs that are not effected by WIND, DRAG or DRIFT or DISPERSION have no buisness being in anything that dares to call itself a simulation.

I played in the MA for 3 months, all I wanted to do was bomb, i flew fighters now and then but mainley i flew bombers....well after a while the point and click one bomb at a time crap got boring to me aswell, even with the arado you had to do the same trash over and over...dropping 1 bomb at a time..no real skill required no element of chance at all...well I got bored quick enough and finally canceled my account..

EDIT:
I dont know about anyone else but the reason I stopped flying bombers is because the are so simple and the bombs so accurate and predictable that the whole process got so repeditive and old because it takes NO skill to do it..

Basically unless a fighter shoots down the bomber it will be able to pick EVERY target it wants to hit and will do it EXACTLY the same way EVERY TIME and will hit its targets EVERY time..because the bombs behave EXACTLY the same...and i hate to break it to ya but  THAT IS BORING!

Saying that people wont fly bombers because they bombs are not accurate to the point that every time they drop one it will land EXACTLY on target is like saying people wont fly fighters because EVERY bullet wont go EXACTLY where they aim EVERY time they pull the triger...but wait fighters DO have dispersion..uh ho..and 20x as many people fly fighters..uh ho..and fighters are more fun..christ this is scary.

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 04-17-2001).]

[MANDOBLE]

Pepe, agree completely with you except about buff guns. As they are now, buffs do not need scort fighters, and, IMO, this should be a critial, reallistic and funny part of the game. Interceptors against the buffs and the scorts. This way, negating an enemy base will imply big aerial battles for sure. Actually it is as simply as getting there with an alone B17, destroying the FHs and even killing one or two interceptors.

[Xjazz]

Pepe you nail it right!

Xjazz

[SOB]

 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/001354.html

[janjan]

All we need is that airfield damage model is changed. Make it so that hits on field area does some damage and maybe more if hit on runway.

There can be a procentage of damage to airfield in which pinpoint targets give some penalties and area hits other penalties or lowers the tonnage needed to take down hangars etc... It's all about damage modelling of ground targets. Why can't a city be an area target - sounds much more feasible to me.

[Degas]

IRL, a 17 on it's own was dead meat.  Prior to the availability of round-trip fighter cover, the only thing that allowed ANY of the buff crews to survive their 25 missions utilizing daylight raids were the massive bomber formations (OOO-RAH, Mighty Eighth!).

I'm new, so I don't know much about AH, and the decisions to loft up laserwagons.  I'm having fun in buffs, but mostly from the gunners turret.  But it seems to me that making the suggested changes would tend to encourage coordinated play in AH.  And, from what I seen, that is a needed thing.  Anything that would encourage people to mount coordinated missions, I would welcome.  As is, people just seem to rotate and head for the nearest furball.

This may not even be possible, given the peculiarities of human nature, and the current scoring configuration.  Having a Theatre Command that would set missions and priorities is one way, but would require making a whole new game <grin>.

This is the way they are setting up WWIIOL.  You get points for killing the enemy.  You get way more points for killing the enemy as part of a Command-generated Mission.  Commanders will initially be the developers, and a few select beta testers.  Eventually, in-game promotions based on game points will determine the commanders at the different levels.  One thing I don't like about the WWIIOL setup is that you HAVE to survive and RTB in order to be awarded any points.  So the poor bastard who gave his life for his country gets nothing.

Just my $.02

<S>

[lazs]

pepe and wobble we agree completely... I think people are starting to get a little fed up.  The cities need to be bigger and the gimicky fighter hanger deroofing= no fighters available needs to be rethought too.

i agree that the concessions have no place in a sim.  they stand out like a sore thumb and at this point, are destrying gameplay as well as immersion.
lazs

[TheWobble]

<gives lazs a big slobbery kiss...on the cheek of course>


ya my point is that we dont need such accurate bombs because even the biggest target a bomber will attack is VERY small compared to its real world counterpart.. take the city as a keen example...a lone bomber can COMPLETLY destroy the entire city by it self...so there is no need for a mass formation to accomplish a goal...so the idea that we need super accurate tard bombs because we dont have mass formations is thus negated....1 bomber can do the work of 10 because of the size ratio of the targets...giving the the lazer guided bombs FAR FAR FAR over compensates for the lack of mass formations.. the size of the targets already compensates for the lack of mass bombing..the super accurate bombs and idiot proof sights just makes it BORING.

[BlauK]

I simply agree with previous statements  

[Revvin]

Something I too have suggested on a few occasions. More realsitc effects from the bombs would be all thats needed to take away to over accurate norden sight, as an interim fix why not have a little settling time as in Warbirds.

Lazs> Again you try to turn a post around to suit your own agenda..shame on you! this is not about your tired old whine about 'de-roofing' hangars stopping fighters taking off as with realistic bomb damage carpet bombing with the correct salvo and delay settings would still acomplish this as well as see runways cratered stopping fighters taking off...be careful what you wish for  

[This message has been edited by Revvin (edited 04-17-2001).]

[Vosper]

It's also about immersion, to me.

I can go in low strafing and watch the rounds hitting around the target (immersion).

I take a B26 with 250 lb bombs and put them exactly where I need them (replace the B26 with F-15E's and it could be any currently held Red Flag exercise - not immersion  ).

It's fun to drop a 4k bomb in the middle of an area and watch multiple buildings blow up (immersion, except for it hitting precisely where I aimed).

It would be great to set salvo to 4, pickle them off, and be able to get an outside view of the bombs wobbling as they descend towards their targets, hitting in the generally close, but not exact, location of my aiming spot (based on altitude over target).

Acks are easy enough to strafe down in a jabo mission that bombers no longer need the accuracy to drop a 100lb bomb at the feet of the ack gunners.  (This could change if the AI for the acks changes to insta-kill vs jabos, but that's something of a different topic).

Cheers

[Kieran]

For the sake of the new guys-

Go get 20-30 of your closest friends. Have them all take buffs, and vector to the nearest enemy HQ. Climb to 25K or so, then announce to the enemy you are inbound (if you want to simulate the LW's ability to detect raids at that point). Bring escort if you like. Now, count how many bombers make it to target.

It won't be many.

Here it is: either you want people to be in bombers or you don't. I have taken part in a few raids like the one described above, and they were always one-sided in favor of the fighters. I am primarily a fighter jock, but even I can see that some concession has to be made to the bomber pilots or there will be none.

That may be fine for many people, and that is their opinion. I happen to like having a variety of options available in anything I do.

Lone bombers always die if approached by multiple cons and approached carefully. What we have now is a situation where people choose not to address a bomber threat until it is way too late. A rushed attack on a bomber means a dead fighter. Is that so wrong?

[Pepe]

Kieran,

I put in my first post not to touch Buff's Guns. That is the only gameplay concession that is needed.

Having Norden Sights' behaviour closer to reality would not hamper Buff usage, It might improve it.

Replacing pinpoint accuracy with bigger blast radius and durable damage (craters the size the real ones), not only to structures but also runways & plain soil itself would not hamper Buff usage, I bet It will boost it. Is funnier to see big craters where your egg fell, from my point of view.

Please note that I am ready to take the gameplay blow that is the power of current gun set (not only range, but convergence, ability to fire through own plane's surfaces, perfect coordination of all positions, etc.) for the sake of Buffs ability to self-defense alone. But 25k alt nitpicking deacking multiple-pass jinking outmanouvering buffs do not add anything to gameplay, and do not add anything to plain fun for this sim.

I think it is of crucial importance the fact that you CAN NOT buff a field from 20k+
alt without plainly destroying pretty much all of it. If that is the case, the attackers should CAP there for a pretty long time. And air operations for that field should be disabled, as well, for a pretty long time.

If you want to save the field for fast usage, just jabo it, and with small/medium bombs. And better you are accurate, or face runway/ammo/barracks/fuel ruin.

Lone bombers usually die when aproached by multiple cons and approached carefully. More on the same...If the bomber takes the same right approach, and fly on a tight box formation, at the right alt, the end could be different. If they take the right approach (the same as the fighter you mention) you can bet there is close escort. If they plan good, there is close escort and hi cap. And, finally, if they do that, they should not have nitpicking ability. They should bring hell to the poor target below them. But hell for the whole target.

And, after the job is done, the now burning target would not be feasible to land by any means, nor be able to launch any kind of vehicle. For a long time (say 30 minutes). Within that window of time, the base would be captured only by conventional drunk drop, or M3, and the CAP should stay there, for a counterstrike could retake the field with small cost.

I think AH is a wonderful fighter sim, a fun GV game, and a quite boring brain-less buff game. All in all, the best I can buy for my money, but I think there is room for improvement, in particular, in the Bomb compartment  

Cheers,

Pepe

[Dowding]

Pepe - even with the current bomber gun set-up, and flying in a tight bomber formation at 20k you get cut to pieces if unescorted.

Kieren is right.

And furthermore, ask anyone who has flown a buff in the historical scenarios - even with an escort you lose a fair few buffs in the first pass. And none will make it to target after 5 minutes of such attacks. I've seen it over and over again.

A couple of months ago, about 16 Knight B17s took off to attack a field a few sectors behind enemy lines. Only about 3 made it to target and none made it back to base.

I'm for the WBs type of bomb sight, but against making the bombs less accurate at the moment. Changing the number of objects (i.e. increasing the size of the city) is not possible with AH right now. It is limited to 4000 ground targets, I believe.

I'd rather HTC work on fleshing out the planeset and improving aircraft FMs, instead of making changes to the foundations of the game. Because it seems to me that is exactly what would be required if the bombs were made less accurate - otherwise there would be fewer buffs in AH.

Perhaps it could be done in a new version somewhere down the line - who's to say?