Author Topic: Time for another ME flame war!  (Read 1307 times)

Offline Udie

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Time for another ME flame war!
« on: April 23, 2002, 03:51:56 PM »
So what happened to all the people that were spouting out about the "masacre" in Jenin?!!?!?!!!?!?!?!

 Awefully quiet now that the PA propaganda has been proven false.

 I fail to understand how any educated westerner could believe a word that comes out of Arafat's mouth.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2002, 04:00:13 PM by Udie »

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2002, 03:58:12 PM »
So true...

I guess the next lie will be the "massacre of Gaza City".
I belive the fighting in Gaza will be lot worse than the west bank was:(

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2002, 03:59:28 PM »
It wont work...the Israelis have hidden the "evidence" ...the commies and arabs can live on that lie for ages now.

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2002, 04:12:53 PM »
Just so interesting that scuicide bombings stopped.
WTG Sharon,You are my hero:D

Offline Staga

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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2002, 04:20:12 PM »
I rather wait what people U.N sent there will find.
Oh and I'm already worried what will happen if those massacres did happen. I really hope they don't find too many bodies under those ruins 'cause in that case U.S needs to think really hard how to continue its policy in middle-east.

Anyway Israel has showed its true colors already and because actions of Sharon it also lost many supporters.
I believe people remember Jenin and Ramallah similar way as they remember Shabra and Shatila and in both cases same person was behind these actions.

Personally I think Israel did not achieve anything. Actually I believe it created whole new generation of suicide bombers and terrorists. And that is not good news to U.S.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2002, 04:21:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Just so interesting that scuicide bombings stopped.
WTG Sharon,You are my hero:D


I hope you're not celebrating too early...

Offline Udie

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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2002, 04:37:52 PM »
Originally posted by Staga
I rather wait what people U.N sent there will find.
Oh and I'm already worried what will happen if those massacres did happen. I really hope they don't find too many bodies under those ruins 'cause in that case U.S needs to think really hard how to continue its policy in middle-east.



 I hope they don't either....

Anyway Israel has showed its true colors already and because actions of Sharon it also lost many supporters.
I believe people remember Jenin and Ramallah similar way as they remember Shabra and Shatila and in both cases same person was behind these actions.


 If you're talking about the masacre committed by Lebanese Christians I think you need to study the history and see that they were once themselves the victom of "ethnic/religeous clensing by the pal's and that they acted out of vengence not from Sharon's orders.  

Personally I think Israel did not achieve anything. Actually I believe it created whole new generation of suicide bombers and terrorists. And that is not good news to U.S.

There haven't been many homicide bombings lately have there?  They stopped the situations that was at hand.  Future generations of murdering bombers has already been handled by Arafat's propaganda machine.......


 The following article could be propaganda, but personaly I'm more inclined to believe CNN (YUK) over Yes sir Arafat...

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html


Quote
"It was like hunting ... like being given a prize. I couldn't believe it when I saw the soldiers," he said. "The Israelis knew that any soldier who went into the camp like that was going to get killed."


Quote
"It was a very hard fight. We fought at close quarters," he said, "sometimes just a matter of a few meters between us, sometimes even in the same house."


Quote
Asked about the allegations of a massacre, Mardawi said, "By my own standard, what happened there was a massacre. But if you are asking, 'Did I see tens of people killed?' Frankly, no. In my group, we were in an area with no other people. Three fighters with me were killed. Later when we started to move from place to place, we saw destroyed houses and could smell bodies."


Quote
He said there were about 100 Palestinians in the battle -- 60 to 70 fighters from the camp and 20-30 members of the Palestinian security forces.


 The UN is a joke and a fraud!  They are the fools who caused this whole mess to begin with and are defenately biased against Isreal now.  Lets see just after 9/11 USA gets kicked off the human rights commitee and Syria gets put on in our place?!?!?!?!  Syria?!?!?!

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2002, 04:39:14 PM »
Quote
I rather wait what people U.N sent there will find.


Following a deliberation held Tuesday evening, Prime Minster Ariel Sharon decided that Israel would suspend its agreement to cooperate with the United Nations fact-finding mission to the Jenin refugee camp. Well-informed sources in Jerusalem cited three reasons for the decision.

1. The criteria for appointing the candidates to the mission differ from those agreed upon by Israel.

2. The committee has a political rather than military make-up. Israel is of the opinion that the mission should be made up largely of military experts.

3. Israel was consulted on very few matters regarding the mission, and issues that were agreed upon were altered.

Israel's ambassador to the UN, Yehuda Lancry will inform Secretary General Kofi Annan of the decision later Tuesday.

Earlier Monday, Annan announced that former Finnish President Martti Ahtisaari would lead the team, which would also include Cornelio Sommaruga, former president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and Sadako Ogata, the former UN high commissioner for refugees.

One of Israel's main criticisms - the absence of a military man on the inspection panel - was answered when Annan upgraded U.S. Maj. Gen. William Nash from military adviser to the team, to a full-fledged delegate. Nash commanded a multinational force in Bosnia in 1996 and was the U.N. administrator in northern Kosovo in 2000.

The official Israeli sources were critical of the composition of the team, saying they were "surprised that the secretary general did not consult Israel about its makeup. We expected the fact finding about operations would be done by military experts." But they reiterated comments by Foreign Minister Shimon Peres to Annan, that "Israel has nothing to hide."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154990&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

Nothing to hide at all...

Offline takeda

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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2002, 04:51:50 PM »
Your hero seems to be a crook on top of a reincident war criminal. :rolleyes:


http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/23/News/News.47526.html

Police question Sharon for 7 hours
By Etgar Lefkovits


Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was questioned by police for nearly seven hours yesterday about alleged fund-raising violations during the 1999 Likud primary campaign in which he was elected party chairman.

He was questioned by members of the National Fraud Squad at his Jerusalem residence. Some reports said he was questioned under caution, meaning that his testimony may be used against him in court.

Clearly embarrassed by police leaks to Channel 2 Sunday night about Sharon's impending questioning, the police spokesman's office officially declined to comment on the interrogation throughout the afternoon, issuing only a terse statement confirming Sharon was questioned.

The questioning centered on Sharon's alleged involvement in the operation of fictitious companies used to transfer funds from foreign donors to Sharon's campaign.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2002, 05:04:04 PM »
Read this. It's from an Israeli newspaper, not a Palestinian one.


The building under discussion is a five-story structure in El Bireh that houses the Palestine International Bank. It was captured by the Israel Defense Forces on Friday, March 29, the first day of its incursion into Ramallah and its twin city, El Bireh.

For 23 days, a large force of soldiers remained in the building, on the bank's three floors (plus the basement) and on the two floors housing private consulting and advertising agencies (including the Sky advertising agency, which won the monopoly on Palestinian advertising on Palestinian television and is run by Tarek Abbas, Abu Mazen's son).

For three weeks, four or five armored vehicles and a tank or two were permanently positioned next to this building that symbolized a milestone on the road to developing the Palestinian yuppie business sector, considered a pillar of the concept of "building a peace process by developing the private sector." The building and the main branch of the Palestine International Bank were described as a "five-star hotel"; it had marble corridors, designer furniture, matching drapes, state-of-the-art electronics, pleasant waiting rooms, the latest computers and a parking lot for clients' cars.

For three weeks mounds of dirt and flattened cars dragged into the middle of the adjacent streets ensured that no one would approach the building. On the third day of the IDF's invasion of the city, March 31, two days after it had taken over the building, the soldiers were observed bringing some things into it and removing other things from it. With guns aimed, they instructed journalists to leave the place and said they were searching for weapons and wanted individuals.

Two days ago, walking from room to room and floor to floor, one found it was possible to discover what had transpired in this building.

The IDF force's attempt to break into the main safes was apparently unsuccessful and the locks were ruined. Bank officials' safes were broken into and their contents disappeared. The safe of the automated teller machine also could not be broken into, but the soldiers did manage to ruin the actual machine, which costs around NIS 40,000.

The soldiers smashed glass doors and windows; on some floors, they broke down walls, apparently in a not very thorough search for weapons that were not found (otherwise they would have broken down all the walls), tore out marble tiles, ripped out telephone wires, destroyed telephones (other equipment disappeared), broke a few pieces of furniture, littered the floors with food scraps and scrawled in Hebrew on the walls.

The state-of-the-art telephone switchboard (made by Telrad) was removed. The soldiers threw around files of documents while other folders disappeared or were found piled up in a corner of the room.

But the main focus of the force's mission was to destroy the bank's entire computer network.

"The saboteur knows about computers," concludes the bank's director general, Osama Khader, who on Sunday wondered around from room to room in a daze and pointed out the damages. The bank, which was founded in 1997, serves 16,000 clients. The up-to-date database of accounts, recent transfers, transactions, checks paid out to and received by customers - all was destroyed. The soldiers, Khader pointed out, damaged the main computer room, ripped out wires, took away diskettes and damaged the hard drives or took them away. The bank's computer terminals were all thrown around, broken or had missing or broken drives. Computer parts were found strewn around the courtyard and other parts were found charred in the pile of food that had been set alight.

"Please don't litter," was written on a piece of paper found hanging on a wall in the manager's office. The floor was covered with sunflower seed shells and coffee stains. There were blue booklets strewn next to demolition tools and hammers, and the stamp on each one indicated that they were a donation from the Kabbala Learning Center for world peace, love and human dignity.

There was a similar scene in the offices of Sky: a decorative wall near the entrance had disappeared; Tarek Abbas, the director, wondered where the wall had disappeared to: there was no trace of it. The clogged toilets emitted a stench. There were computers strewn about the room that had been damaged, disk drives that had been broken and hard drives that had disappeared. One drawer had had $1,000 in it and that too disappeared. A VCR disappeared. Children's toys marketed by the company were destroyed. All of the business cards of customers and potential customers had disappeared.

Similar and even worse scenes of destruction were uncovered two days ago in other offices in Ramallah and El Bireh (as well as in Nablus and Bethlehem) which the soldiers had stormed into: in the housing bank and in all of the Palestinian Authority's offices (except for the Ministry of Planning headed by Nabil Sha'ath and the Ministry of Sport and Youth), the computers had been destroyed by various methods and documents were tossed out, torn up and disappeared. The offices of human rights organizations, independent research institutes and non-governmental health organizations were destroyed: at the Medical Relief Committees' eye center, all the eyeglasses were found broken and scattered on the floor, the same organization's warehouse for aids for handicapped people was broken into and some of the equipment was destroyed; data bases and computers used by the research institutes to monitor health, agriculture and environmental and water quality were destroyed.

Officials at the Higher Education Authority thought that they had been spared the destruction: Last Friday, when the curfew was lifted for a few hours, its three floors of offices and six wings were still intact. Officials even made sure to leave the doors open so that the soldiers would not break them down if they wanted to enter the offices in their search for wanted individuals and weapons.

But on Friday night, the soldiers burst into the building. A neighbor counted 11 explosions and related that the soldiers remained in the building no more than an hour. On Sunday morning, Dr. Gabi Baramki, the authority's adviser on academic affairs and a former president of Bir Zeit University, hurried to the place. "So much damage in just one hour," he said stunned and searching for words to describe the losses incurred.

All of the computers were piled up in a few corners and blown up, along with the printers. The explosion tore a hole in the floor of one of the rooms. In the Ministry of Education, which had been broken into two weeks earlier, written documents, books and printed research papers were destroyed or had disappeared. In the offices of the Higher Education Authority, at least some of the hand-written documents remained intact. But as Baramki says, the general destruction indicates that the purpose of the operation was to strike at the infrastructure of Palestinian civil society, to cause it to regress, erase its accomplishments and halt its development.

The IDF also blew up the computers in the large Max supermarket in the city's southwest. A few Palestinian businessmen built it in 1998. Some of them had lived for years in the United States. The force entered the supermarket twice: once some food products were taken from the shelves, but that isn't what bothers Hisham Abd al-Rasul, one of the owners; when the computers were blown up or disappeared, the large supermarket lost all of its business records, receipts and orders.

The first time the force went into the store, it tried unsuccessfully to break open the safe. Two weeks later, the force returned with more appropriate equipment for breaking into safes. There was NIS 60,000 in the safe, but one day after the curfew was lifted, the supermarket's managers discovered that the money had disappeared. Neighbors and managers circulated this information in e-mails that were sent all over the world. After a few days, Civil Administration officials contacted Palestinian liaison officials and informed them that this was not the objective. The money was returned.

Dozens of Ramallah residents (and residents of other cities) were not so lucky even though many of them wrote in e-mails about the money, jewelry and electronic items that disappeared from their homes after IDF soldiers broke in or were positioned there. An eight-year-old girl's gold earrings, gold jewelry, cash (NIS 800 here, $400 there and more), VCRs and video cameras were hidden beneath a soldier's coat. Hundreds of people have been busy over the last two days cleaning the mess left behind by the soldiers, trying to straighten out the apartments and offices and recording the damages incurred: the office owners and private banks, at least, are planning to file suit against the IDF.
 
http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=154751&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=154751

Offline Nashwan

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Time for another ME flame war!
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2002, 05:06:08 PM »
Israel is colonizing the West Bank. The simple problem is that the Arabs are in the way, so the Arabs must be removed. It's operations like this that are the current way to remove them, by making life too difficult to stay.

Just like in 1947, when Israel wasn't satisfied with the land given to it under the partition plan, and so attacked Arabs towns and villages to force the inhabitants out. Towns like Haifa, that was supposed to be Arab, and that the Israelis shelled for days with mortars to drive out the Arabs.

The problem for Israel is that within the area of greater Israel, (ISrael, West Bank, Gaza), Jews make up 53% of the population, Arabs 47%. They have got round this problem by not giving votes to the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza, but that is only a temporary solution. The permanent solution is expulsion, as Caligula has said on this board many times.

I don't condone terrorism, but if I were a Palestinian, being driven out of my homeland, I'd probably think differently. The Zionists were happy to use terrorism to found their state, it is hypocritical to condemn the Arabs for using terrorism to try to defend theirs.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2002, 05:20:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Israel is colonizing the West Bank. The simple problem is that the Arabs are in the way, so the Arabs must be removed.


 Only some religious hardliners among jews are settling the West Bank. They also built settlements on Sinai once.
 Most of israelis are not religious and strongly dislike their religious fundamental minority. They also have no wish to settle in those places - they mostly prefer to live in large cities.

 When Israel signed peace with Egypt and did not need Sinai as buffer against aggression, they buldozed those settlements out of Sinai overnight.
 The same will happen to West Bank and Gaza settlements if Israel does not need to control those territories for military safety - the israeli settlers would be evacuated again whether they want it or not.

 Of course the peacefull solution is not in the interests of Hamas or other fundamentalists - they do not hide their intent of eliminating Israel altogether. They cannot allow palestinian life to improve - the better palestinians live, the harder it would be to find recruits...

 miko
« Last Edit: April 23, 2002, 05:23:42 PM by miko2d »

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2002, 05:21:48 PM »
Quote
If you're talking about the masacre committed by Lebanese Christians I think you need to study the history and see that they were once themselves the victom of "ethnic/religeous clensing by the pal's and that they acted out of vengence not from Sharon's orders.

Yes, but the IDF had obervation points over Sabra and Shatila, and observed the massacres in progress. Sharon authorised it, letting the militias in to the camps, ordering the IDF not to intervene.

An internal Israeli investigation found him responsible, and he was forced to resign.

Sharon has other war crimes in his past, however, like Qibya (69 civilians murdered on a cross border raid, similar (though much, much larger) to the ones Palestinians use now on Israeli settlements). Or like the murder of Arab women collecting water from wells in Katama.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2002, 05:45:03 PM »
Quote
Only some religious hardliners among jews are settling the West Bank. They also built settlements on Sinai.
Most of israelis are not religious and strongly dislike their religious fundamental minority. They also have no wish to settle in those places - they mostly prefer to live in large cities.

When Israel signed peace with Egupt and did not nees Sinai as buffer against aggression, they buldozed those settlements out of Sinai overnight.
The same will happen to West Bank and Gaza settlements if Israel does not need those territories - the israeli settlers would be evacuated wether they want it or not.

Read what Sharon has to say about the settlements.

The Sinai was never considered in the same way as the West Bank, ie an integral part of Israel.

Quote
The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.

5. Jewish settlement, security areas, water resources, state land and road intersections in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip shall remain under full Israeli control.

6. Israel will keep its vital water resources in Judea and Samaria. There shall be no infringement of Israel's use of its water resources

All from the Likud (current Israeli government) party platorm.

The comments about water are particularly revealing.

There are over 1 million Palestinians in Gaza, around 8,000 settlers. The 8000 settlers are allocated 75% of all water resources, the Palestinians the remaining 25%.

In the West Bank, settlements have grown to over 400,000 people, about half of them in and around Jerusalem.

The 200,000 settlers in the rest of the West Bank use as much water as the 2,000,000 Palestinians who live there.

Drilling of wells without a permit is illegal, and permits are restricted for Palestinians.

Even under Barak's proposals, all water rights were to be retained by Israel.

Quote
Of course the peacefull solution is not in the interests of Hamas or other fundamentalists - they do not hide their intent of eliminating Israel altogether. They cannot allow palestinian life to improve - the better palestinians live, the harder it would be to find recruits...

Or of extremists like Sharon, or the even more right wing parties that make up his coalition.

Go to this page
http://www.masada2000.org/cancerwithin.html

They represent an extreme wing in Israeli society, but the figures they present are broadly accurate. Israel cannot remain Jewish and democratic with the Arabs inside Israel. The goal of the right in Israel is to expel the Arabs. That cannot be done under peace, only under extreme conditions.

Sharon and others like him seek to bring about those conditions.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2002, 06:06:08 PM by Nashwan »

Offline babek-

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Re: Time for another ME flame war!
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2002, 05:09:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie
So what happened to all the people that were spouting out about the "masacre" in Jenin?!!?!?!!!?!?!?!

 Awefully quiet now that the PA propaganda has been proven false.

 I fail to understand how any educated westerner could believe a word that comes out of Arafat's mouth.


LOL.

I dont know what propaganda news you are watching, but the main  german TV senders - like ARD, ZDF, NTV, RTL or SAT1 - are all reporting about a brutal israeli massacre. None of these senders agreed in their reports with the official israeli version.
In these reports Jenin is considered as a war-crime like Sebrenica.

Since the massacre of Sabra and Shatila Sharon is considered in Europe as a war-criminal. He cant travel in many european contries, because there is arrest order against this war-criminal.

Now - lets wait what details the investigation teams will find out, if Israel agrees to let them in.