Author Topic: AMD CPU Reccommendations?  (Read 1278 times)

Offline DAVENRINO

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AMD CPU Reccommendations?
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2002, 12:42:33 PM »
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Offline Slash27

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« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2002, 07:00:14 PM »
bloom-

    since im bordering on clueless here, could you possibly explain the "quantispeed" to me?  also, do you or anyone else know anything about ABS pc's?  they appear to be using quality components and have gotten some good reviews. just curious before i drop 2 grand:D .  thanks.

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2002, 09:24:12 PM »
Slash, "quantispeed", like many other marketing names applied to PC components means absolutely nothing. ;)  (Other examples are "netburst", "pentium", "hyperpipelined", "Athlon", "Duron", "Celeron".)  None of these are real words.  They use parts of real words to give you the impression that they mean something.

Athlon is similar to the latin for "performing unit" and Duron roughly translates as "lasting unit".  "Netburst" is an Intel marketing term for certain parts of the P4 core architecture.  "Quantispeed" is the AMD equivilant of that term.  Marketing departments probably consume large amounts of pizza and beer, combined with a lack of sleep, to get themselves into the right frame of mind to come up with new totally meaningless but cool sounding words. :D

You aren't totally wrong with what you said above though, it is true that at the same clockspeed an Athlon will outperform a Pentium 4.  Even though you know this, the general computer buying public often chooses a computer based ONLY on the clockspeed they see on the features list.  Why an Athlon is able to do this is far beyond the scope of this post, and would require hundreds of pages on CPU design theory and architechural details of both processors.  

I've seen a lot of analogies around which try to explain this in a somewhat meaningful way, but picture it this way:  (I hope you like cars... :) ) A 454 Chevy V8 and a 350 Chevy V8 are both automobile engines.  They both do the same job, and both interface with the same basic components (radiator, transmission, etc), but one is a "big block" and one is a "small block" engine.  At the same RPM, which one is more "powerful"?  What whould happen if the only rating system you had to compare the two engines was RPM though?  Obviously the small block 350 can achieve higher RPMs than the 454 can, but that's not a totally valid comparison to decide which engine would be best in your truck.

I realize this is a silly way to try to describe this to you, obviously CPUs are not car engines, but it's not a totally inaccurate way of describing what's going on here.  AMD's Athlon would be the 454 big block engine in the above example and the Intel P4 would be the 350.  To explain to the public how the Athlon could perform equally with a P4, even though their clockspeeds were not the same, AMD invented a marketing term called "quantispeed".  Basically they want you to think that the Athlon is somehow "turbocharged" and gets more work done per clock cycle.  This is, in general, a true statement.

The Athlon is a kind of like a "brute force" type of processor.  It can handle a higher number of instructions at once than the P4, and it's floating point math (FPU) unit is far superior to that of the Pentium 4.  (The FPU is used for high precision mathematical operations.)  Applications that make heavy use of the FPU almost always show the Athlon coming out ahead of the P4 in those tests.   Most scientific, engineering, and Direct X games (and flight sims in particular) make heavy use of the FPU.

Compared to the Athlon, the P4 was designed to be capable of very high clockspeeds, but at the expense of how much it could process per clock.  I don't know exactly why Intel chose this approch when designing the P4, but it doesn't hurt that it makes it very easy to scale up in clockspeed with much less effort than AMD requires to increase the Athlon's clockspeed.  This ensures a fairly long lifetime of this design for future Intel processors.  You may not know, but Intel's previous desktop processor design, the P6 core, was used under multiple names with only some fairly minor changes over its lifetime.  (The P6, in all its various forms, was the heart of the Pentium Pro, Pentium 2, Pentium 3, and Celeron.  These processors spanned from 1995 until 2002, as the Celeron is still based on this core.)  I personally believe Intel wanted the successor to the P6 core to also be capable of being adapted and modified to serve as the heart of Intel processors for years.  In that, they succeeded.

I don't want to mislead you and let you get the impression that the P4 is a "bad" performing design, remember that since Intel can easily boost up the clockspeeds they can match the performance of the Athlon at its lower clockspeeds to win over the enthusiast market and wow over the general public when if they were to see the huge difference between the clockspeeds the P4 and Athlon run at.  When Intel released the P4 2.4 Ghz, that was the first time in over a year and a half that their top of the line processor edged out the top of the line Athlon for first place.  The Athlon XP 2100+ still definately wins the "bang for the buck" race though.

AMD response, to keep from losing the business of the general (uneducated in computers) public was to invent the term "quantispeed" to describe how, for example, a 1467 Mhz Athlon can outperform a 1700 Mhz Pentium 4.

The CPU business changes very quickly as to which is the top performing CPU at a particular moment.  In just a few days (May 2, from leaked information) AMD will be releasing a new Athlon XP core at higher clockspeeds.  Expect Intel to respond soon after with a 2.533 Ghz P4 to match AMD.

At the end of this year, AMD will be releasing it's sucessor to the Athlon XP, or more exact 2 replacements.  One will likely sell under the marketing name Athlon XP-64 and the other was just named the AMD Opteron processor.  The lower performance Athlon XP-64 is supposed to launch at a true clockspeed of 2 Ghz, but will carry at least an XP 3400+ rating, or the equal of a 3.4 GHz P4 Northwood.  The Opteron will be even more powerful, but it will be out of the price range for the average consumer on launch.  Intel has a new P4 core (actually 2) which they plan to release on mid-2003 to respond to AMD.  It's a never ending cycle for the next couple years at least.

I hope that's helped you some. :)

Unfortunately I don't know anything about ABS computers.  (I build my own computers.)

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2002, 04:15:14 AM »
Bloom25!  I've just read your post above, and what a cracking read it was :) I read every word and learned a lot.

My own processor is the Athlon 1.2GHz. I upgraded to this from my previous AMD-K6-3 450MHz, and in Warbirds it made a hell of a difference. In Aces High, the Athlon seems fine. What would you recommend as a processor for Aces High to someone in the market to upgrade, and why?

I also have a question about late model graphics cards. I understand there's now a GeForce 4 with anti-aliasing, whatever that is. You've told us a lot about processors - can you now tell us about graphics cards?

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2002, 07:52:57 AM »
If I may expand on this bloom25.

The clock rates of any given processor today is the speed of the core unit in the processor, but does not give you any idea of the amount of time (T-states) it takes a given processor to actually fetch AND execute any given instruction.
The number of T-states it takes to execute an instruction is difficult to measure today.  This is due to the processor pipeline architectures, which is probably more key to the actual performance differences between Intel and AMD.
Remember, all the processors are handicapped by the speed of memory/RAM access, as it is significantly slower than the CPU core is running.
Where the processor clock rate helps the most, is in the FPU (if the FPU is running at the processor clock rate).  Floating point is expensive, in terms of T-states.  Intel has really never been known for having a fast FPU.  It is no surprise AMD's FPU blows it away.
One of the tradeoffs in the design architectures of the two companies offerings occurs at the pipeline level of the CPU.  This pipeline is where all the action takes place before the instructions are actually executed.  Intel has typically a larger pipeline than AMD.  This is done to help with predictive branching, at some expense though.  If the branching is positive, then in that one instance, Intel may roll past AMD, but this is an iffy proposition.  On the other hand predictive branching in a large pipeline can invalidate a significantly larger number of instructions in the processor pipeline and thus take a performance hit as the pipeline now needs to be fetched again before the processor can get back to work.  Of course, the processors continues to work as the instructions come in, but this is much slower than being able to walk through the pipeline, as it were.
The larger pipeline also adds more T-states to any given instruction.  Think of the processor pipeline as a tube, with one end being the memory and the other end being the CPU core where the intruction gets executed.  The time it would take to roll a ball through the tube gets longer as the tube gets longer, if all other things are equal (i.e. the ramp of the tube and weight of the ball).
AMD, typically, has a much smaller pipeline than Intel, at the same clock rates.  This contributes to a little more performance in real-time applications, as the T-states required to actually execute the instruction is less than in comparable Intel designs.  In non-real time applications, such as databases, Intel might perform better than AMD as the longer/deeper pipeline would work to thier advantage.  Depends on the data.  AMD's more efficient FPU would help them overcome any advantage Intel would have if the database contained a siginificant amount of floating point math.
Now, with Intel's Northwood core, they have taken an elegant, but bruteforce approach to overcome some of thier inefficiencies.  Moving to a 13 micron process allows Intel to reduce the number of clock dividers/multipliers in the processor and boost the peformance of various units in the CPU.  I do not know if they actually did this or not, but I suspect they may have and it would make perfect sense.  The lower mass of each gate would allow for faster switching times.
Intel also gained some other advantages when they went to the 13 micron process.  Lower power consumption, which means less heat to dissipate.  The ability to clock at significantly higher speeds, with better manufacturing yeilds (this is pretty significant by the way).
At this point in time, the performance differences between Intel (Northwood) and AMD is pretty negligible.  Of course, tomorrow is another story.

Don't let the marketing buzz words drive you to make a decision.  People get caught up in those things (which is what marketing is supposed to do), but they are pretty irrelevant.  Just like video cards "Hardware T&L".  The truth about that buzz word; with todays CPU speeds a well written application (game) can do the T&L significantly faster than the video card can.  Even though you get some parallel operations going on, it is still not significant enough to help.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline Slash27

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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2002, 09:07:15 AM »
thank you bloom25 and Skuzzy. that was more than helpful. breaking it down into pickup truck engines is very helpful to us "redneck" types.:D  once again i appreciate your responses.   i am smarter for reading them.

Offline bloom25

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« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2002, 09:42:47 PM »
I was going to talk about pipelining and t-states Skuzzy, but analyzing t-states isn't totally accurate either.  (Hardware prefetching, TLBs, and branch prediction throw in a big monkey wrench, decoding of some particular x86 instructions in rom.)  If you guys wanted the exact number of stages in the pipelines of the Athlon XP and P4, it is 11 for the Athlon XP and 20 for the P4.  This means, worst case, that the Athlon at the same clockspeed will be much "faster" than the P4 in executing instructions.  (The pipeline is only 5 stages in the first Mac G4, and 7 or 8 in the newer models.  This is one of the main reasons the Macs have been limited to 400 mhz to now 1 Ghz while Athlons and P4s were at 1 Ghz +.  The architecture of a G4 is totally different than a PC processor so there's even more to get into there, but it makes a valid point.)

Skuzzy, on May 2nd AMD will release the Thoroughbred core Athlon XPs, which are on .13u.  (As far as I know, that is the only change, but that in itself will reduce power consumption and allow higher clockspeeds.)  AMD plans on making some L2 cache changes and a FSB increase with their "Barton" core in Q3 this year.

beet1e, what did you want to know about anti-aliasing?  I.E. How does it work?  What does it do?  These are totally different questions, but knowing how it works helps in understanding what it does to improve picture quality.  (Note, I don't know nearly as much about graphics chips as CPUs, but I do know basically how AA works ... or at least how it used to work.)

Hehe, what did you think of my auto engine analogy Skuzzy? :D  (You'd be amazed how much it helps in explaining how very technical things work to relate them to cars.)

As for FPUs, the big difference between the P4 FPU and the Athlon FPU is a cost cutting meaure Intel implemented to keep die size down (and make costs lower).  A FPU has to handle addition, subtraction, multiplication, and divide operations.  (Along with load and store to memory operations, but we won't talk about that.)  The main difference between the Athlon/Duron design FPU and P4 design (and actually P3) FPU broadly falls into the somewhat marketing and somewhat engineering term "fully pipelined."  Basically what's going on here is that in order to do a multiplication or divide operation, a P4 must make use of both it's addition (subtraction - they are the same operation to a computer with one minor difference) unit AND it's multiplication unit.  Thus the P4's FPU is not "fully pipelined."  In other words, its multiplication and addition units share some common units within the CPU.  This means a P4 must wait for an addition operation to finish before it can start processing a multiplication operation.  Note, a multiplication operation takes FOREVER to do.  (Unless it's a power of 2, that's just a shift operation.  BTW a P4 lacks a fast barrel shifter, so these operations are also significantly faster on an Athlon.)

The Athlon has fully independant multiplication and addition units in its FPU.  This means that not only do they not wait on each other, the Athlon can actually do both a multiplication and an addition operation AT THE SAME TIME.  This makes a HUGE difference under some circumstances.  As long as the result from the multiplication operation isn't needed for the addition operation (or visa versa), they can be done simultaneously.  A game with a high precision flight or physics model (which needs to do FPU math to crunch out equations) will most likely be faster on an Athlon than on a P4.  From my own (very limited) testing, this seems to hold true for AH, but either CPU is so fast that it's not like a P4 user will have an unplayable experience in AH.  Some newer games, like Il2 and Commanche 4 show a significant lead on Athlon systems as the resolution is increased for this very reason.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2002, 04:10:47 AM »
Bloom25,

I would love to know where you got your knowledge from.  I never realised there was so much complexity in my little Athlon processor which I can hold in the palm of my hand.

I spent a considerable part of my working life as a COBOL programmer, and also wrote some Assembler routines for IBM’s mainframe operating system, MVS (Multi-programming Virtual Storage, since repackaged with other components and re-released as OS/390). In Assembler, each line of code represents one machine instruction, unlike COBOL, where one statement can generate 20-30 or more machine instructions. I even remember coding a SLL   R4,1 Assembler instruction to shift left logical the bits in Register 4 by one position, so I know exactly what you meant about the longwinded nature of that multiplication process. If multiplying by a number which was not a power of 2, it would be necessary to load the value to be multiplied into an even-odd pair of registers, and load the multiplier into another register. The reason for needing two registers for the value to be multiplied was because the system knew that multiplying two registers together could result in a multiplicand value which could only be accommodated in a doubleword, or two registers. Much of the longwindedness of such multiplication operations stemmed from having to set up at least three registers to perform the operation, and that could mean storing their contents first, and restoring them afterwards. If I knew I was dealing only with smaller values, I opted for the halfword variants of Multiply instructions, and avoided having to use register pairing, the result fitting into a single register because the Max halfword multiplier value would be 32,767, the leftmost bit being reserved for the sign. Better still was to use the Decimal instructions, which did not use registers at all. I don’t know whether Intel or AMD processors support decimal instructions in the same way as IBM’s mainframe processors?

I remember reading about “Mr. Intel” in TIME Magazine a few years ago. He is a Hungarian gentleman who escaped Hungary with his wife around the time of the 1956 uprising. He went to America and changed the world with his invention of the processor chip. The very first version of a semiconductor chip was shown in the TIME article. It’s amazing to think that what we have today sprang from that...

If anyone would like to blow their minds on IBM Assembler for OS/390, check out IBM's Principles of Operation manual.

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2002, 11:04:05 AM »
Quite correct bloom, it is very difficult to get the t-state information from a pipeline full of operations, but one can derive the t-state information from a single operation.
Basically, a program could invalidate the cache, then execute a single instruction and wait for the return of the operation before moving on.
A little tricky, but it can be done.

Yes, the barrel shifter in the Intel processors is not very good.  Go figure, when Motorola introduced the 68020 family processor and FPU (long time ago), they had a barrel shifter thay took one t-state to complete any shift operation, regardless of the bit count.  I remember seeing the Intel guys jaws hit the floor.

Thanks for the information about the AMD release.  I hope they can get thier yeilds up.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline Horn

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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2002, 11:54:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
I remember reading about “Mr. Intel” in TIME Magazine a few years ago. He is a Hungarian gentleman who escaped Hungary with his wife around the time of the 1956 uprising. He went to America and changed the world with his invention of the processor chip. The very first version of a semiconductor chip was shown in the TIME article. It’s amazing to think that what we have today sprang from that...


As I remember, Jack Kilby of Texas Instruments and Robert Noyce of Iowa (later Intel) were credited with the development of the integrated circuit. They shared this credit in the form of the 2000 Nobel Prize for Physics with Zhores Alferov (Beloruss)sp?)) and Herbert Kroemer of CA.

Maybe the guy you are thinking of, known as "Mr. Chips" was Swiss-born Jean Hoerni, a brilliant engineer that used silicon for the first time combined with an insulating method known as the planar process. He ended up making Fairchild Industries into a $100 billion company. Passed away in '97 at 72.  That him?

dh

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2002, 12:21:53 PM »
Horn,

The guy who I read about was, I believe, Andras Grof who at some time changed his name to Grove. I managed to find this article about him.

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2002, 12:56:56 PM »
Quote
In case you were wondering, this .13, .18, .25, .35 micron process statement refers to the minimum possible transistor length.
I don't believe this is correct bloom.  As a rule, it refers to the transistor gate length.. not the transistor length.  Even then... it stopped being accurate in that regards about 3 years ago.  Now, it probably more reflects a metal 1 line width than anything else.

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Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2002, 01:01:45 PM »
BTW... for all you physics guys out there... the wavelength of the light being used to generate these structures is .248 micron (some .193 micron too... but not in anything on the market from Intel).

AKDejaVu

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2002, 01:10:46 PM »
That sounds right DejaVu.  I didn't even give it a thought and just assumed the measurements of the ethchings were done via the width of the trace (as it were).

.248 micron...thanks,..oh oh.  I am a geek!  Who is using .193?  Heavy stuff there and very costly too.

This has been a fun thread.  

Isn't the length of the line fixed by the capacitance value in conjunction with the propagation delay of the signal/current in order to insure smooth transitions of power from on to off to on states?  It's been a while since I did circuit design.
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Offline Horn

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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2002, 01:45:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Horn,

The guy who I read about was, I believe, Andras Grof who at some time changed his name to Grove. I managed to find this article about him.


Ahhh, cc. He and Noyce were both at Fairchild in the 60's--they founded Intel in '68. Dr. Grove has authored some awesome books on the semiconductor as well as one about management that is a great read. I've met him twice (my whole family worked for Intel at one time or another) and he's not only incredibly bright, but also charismatic, which always suprised me as he's such an uber-geek.

Here's more:

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/bios/grove/bio2.htm

dh