Author Topic: same old - same old  (Read 1298 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2002, 12:09:21 AM »
Elfenwolf has a point, am I the only one who notices a stunning resemblance between Arafat and Sharon? They could be brothers (by hideously ugly parents of course) or at least cousins... :D

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2002, 01:14:53 AM »
To somehow try to put the blame for the suicide bombings on Israel is just as sick as to blame a rape victim because she was wearing a short skirt, and should know better than to walk alone at night.

Nashwan is correct, the violence will continue. In fact, the entire palestinian population in the age group 5-50 is "lost". These people have too much hate, and they will keep going as long as they can. As long as there is one Palestinian demand left, there will be more attacks.

Israel cannot negotiate her way out of these attacks, simply because she cannot meet all the Palestinian demands. In some areas it would be suicide (water rights, refugees) in others it is unthinkable (settlements, Jerusalem). There is no political solution to this conflict. That leaves us with a military solution.

The short term goal must be to prevent further attacks. Continued attacks against the Palestinian infrastructure and command chain can probably be expected. These attacks work very good. (And if you had bothered to read anyting about the conflict Staga, you would realize exactly how much the Israeli offensive has done. The Pal "government" and the terrorists cannot survive another offensive like that.) During the latest offensive, several high ranking terrorists, including Arafats second in command, were either killed or captured. Several bomb factories destroyed (and note that The pals only have 6-10 skilled bombmakers). And hundreds of terrorists neutralized.

Since there are thousands of volounteers ready to strap on explosive vests, the problem must be attacked from another angle. The Israelis will continue to kill off the Palestinian leadership, a tactic that has worked extremely well. It does not completely stop bombings in itself, but it drastically reduces the effectiveness of each bomber. Instead of attacks where two or three bombers strike at the same target, one against civilians, and the other one against the rescue personnel, there has been alot of bombings or bombing attempts where the terrorist seems to have been more or less "winging it". These improvised attacks are normally prevented, or result in minimal loss of life.

I also think we will see more walls and fences built around Palestinian towns. I think the Israeli tactic is to strike at the terrorists from two directions. One is to kill off their leadership, destroy their infrastructure (and here, the terrorists and the pal government has been proven to use the same infrastructure) and generally try to cut the head off the organizations. The other direction is to seal off the palestinians from Israel. Build walls around them, fill the streets of Jerusalem with soldiers, enforce curfews, take away their mobility etc.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2002, 04:24:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Nashwan is correct, the violence will continue. In fact, the entire palestinian population in the age group 5-50 is "lost". These people have too much hate, and they will keep going as long as they can. As long as there is one Palestinian demand left, there will be more attacks.


Where did you get your "facts"?

Quote

Build walls around them, fill the streets of Jerusalem with soldiers, enforce curfews, take away their mobility etc.

Pretty much same thing Nazies did in ww2.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2002, 05:56:15 AM »
My statement regarding the lost generations is based on the following:

The 73% approval rating of suicide bombers among Palestinians, combined with the fact that (2 months ago) only 60% wanted peace talks with Israel.

The following article on how the Pals are creating another generation of brainwashed terrorists (quoted by Ripsnort in another thread on this board, this is the primary source):
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/25/MN53534.DTL

Quote from article:
Back in Gaza, however, the kids at the Al-Mujamma Al-Islami kindergarten class started a new game last week called "martyr's funeral."

"One of them pretended to be a martyr, while the others lifted him up and pretended that they were burying him," said Showish. "We tell them that the shahid are very good people, our heroes. We tell them that they must grow up and do the same."

Khitam Ajrami, an expectant mother, says she will tell her unborn child the same thing. "I will tell the baby that his father died a martyr," ... "I will teach the baby to hate Israel".
"If the occupation continues, I will teach my child to do what his father has done. [he was a suicide bomber]"



The following articles found at TIME.com

-The Battle for Jenin
Gives a detailed explanation of what really took place inside the camp.
http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html

-Why Suicide Bombing Is Now All The Rage
A truly horrible reading.

One quote from the article:
"Ibtisam's son Mohammed, 19, blew himself up in Jerusalem on March 2, after positioning himself next to a group of women with baby carriages waiting for their husbands to leave a bar mitzvah ceremony. He killed nine other people and injured more than 50 in the name of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. Two weeks ago, a neighbor came by to pay a condolence call. She mentioned that she wished she were Mohammed's mother so her son could be a martyr."


-Why We Blow Ourselves Up
A Palestinian doctor explains why so many Palestinians want to become martyrs

Both these articles can be found on TIME.com by doing a serch using the keywords "Suicide bombers".
 
From MSNBC.com

-How strong is Hamas
Article from December-01 regarding the terrorist organisation.

-Teenage girl and suicide bomber
Quote from the article: 18-year-old Ayat al-Akhras, strapped with explosives, left her home in the Dheisheh refugee camp near Bethlehem on a suicide mission. At 1:30 p.m. in Jerusalem, 17-year-old Rachel Levy left her home for the supermarket, carrying a grocery list. Just 20 minutes later, both teenagers approached the store, walking in the same direction, meeting at the same time. An eyewitness said they looked like sisters out shopping. They shared only one deadly second. The explosion killed the teenagers and a security guard. In all, 30 people were injured.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/669331.asp

-The mechanics of martyrdom
Quotes from the article: IN OTHER GENERATIONS, in other places, they have been cowboys conquering the Wild West or Jedi knights up against the Empire. In the Israeli-occupied territories today, they’re would-be suicide bombers killing Israelis. And unlike most little boys and girls, for whom the games of war are passing fantasies, the children of Palestine are taught by everything and everyone around them that they’ll have their chance. When they grow up they’ll trade their cardboard bombs for real ones, and kill the real Israelis who man the omnipresent checkpoints, who intimidate and humiliate their parents, or fight their brothers in the streets.

22-year-old Izzedine Masri walked into the Sbarro pizza restaurant in downtown Jerusalem and blew himself up for Hamas, killing 15 people. In nearby Jenin, Palestinians handed out candy on the streets to celebrate the bombing.

After Israeli troops stormed into the Jabaliya refugee camp last month, schoolteacher Samira Abu Shamak was shocked to hear her 6-year-old daughter begging for a gun or a bomb. “She said, ‘I want to be a martyr’,” remembers Abu Shamak
http://www.msnbc.com/news/735266.asp

Do you want more?

As for the nazis-remark. You are only displaying your own ignorance when you post crap like that. How many Jews were suicide bombing german civilians in 33-45?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2002, 05:58:26 AM by Hortlund »

Offline babek-

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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2002, 06:08:47 AM »
It was only a question of time, when the next suicide-bomber would strike in this neverending circle of hate.

With fanatic criminals like Sharon and Arafat there will be no end of this development.

Those who thought that a military operation which was done by the israeli army could avoid future suicide attacks must have been very naive.
Sharon has failed as he has failed before in Lebanon. All the military victories are worthless - they couldnt stop the counteractions or bring peace.

Now the isralis will strike back to get their revenge and by doing so they produce the next suicide bomber who will march out to hit his target.

Then revenge follows for revenge and more and more hate is produced.

Both sides down there have the same guilt - both have criminals and fanatics who are manipulating and claiming that they are right.

The Israelis have no chance to win this conflict with their military and the palestines on the other sides have also no chance to win by their martyr-operations.

And as long as there are no capable politicians the war-criminal-leaders will contiunue their endless game.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2002, 06:27:21 AM »
"and note that The pals only have 6-10 skilled bombmakers"
-Bombs are old invention: everyone with a little knowledge knows how to make them. It's not a rocket science...

When I was a kid we made somekind of grenade launcher from steel tube, gunpowder and some other things. In army I did learn much more about demolishing steel and concrete structures with different explosives and makeing booby traps.
So I know how easy it is to build them so when you're saying only 6-10 palestinians are capable to built them I say BS.
btw they are easy to carry; who says those bombs have to be built by palestinians?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2002, 06:28:23 AM »
Hortlund, how many children in Britain during the war would have said they wanted to kill Germans? How many British or Americans wanted to destroy Germany, and implement the Morgenthau plan? (Even if they didn't know of the plan, that was a general feeling)

How many German children would have wanted to kill all the Jews? All went through Nazi schooling, showing them the racial characteristics of Jews, watched films like Jew Suss. Most joined the Hitler youth. Were they taught peace and justice for all there?

Did the Russians grow up during the war loving the Germans?

Did the Jews in the camp plot revenge when they got out?

In war, people hate their enemies. The more they beat you, the more you hate them.

Palestinian opinion is natural for people at war, natural for an occupied people. Do you think an opinion poll in Poland in 1941 would have been different?

Jewish groups planned revenge against Germany. There were plots to poison resevoirs. The attacks, like the thoughts of revenge, quickly petered out.

Same will be true for the Palestinians. They would rather get jobs, houses and lives than spend their time after the war is over looking for revenge.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2002, 06:37:46 AM by Nashwan »

Offline Staga

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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2002, 06:42:09 AM »
Hortlund read again quotes you did post. Do you really think that crise could be solved by using military power?

Quote

Build walls around them, fill the streets of Jerusalem with soldiers, enforce curfews, take away their mobility.

Nazies did solve some of their "problems" by locking people to the ghettoes and concentration camps. Is that what Israel should do to the palestinians too?

There's 3 million palestinians living in that area. If Israel really want to stop bombings it has two options:
-Kill all palestinians. Well they need to kill all arabs and half of muslims too in that case.
-Search for a political way out from that crise. This option is better for whole world (just my opinion, you might think different).

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2002, 07:14:40 AM »
Option 3: Remove all Palestinians from the West Bank/Gaza Strip

Option 4: Build a large wall around the Gaza-strip. Call the Gaza strip "Palestine" and force move all palestinians into Palestine.

Option 4 can be combined with a South African model "homeland" in the West bank.

And yes, I think military power can solve the situation.

[edit: I'm not saying that I support any of options 3 or 4, I'm just suggesting that there are more options avaliable than your two options: negotiate or kill them all]
« Last Edit: May 08, 2002, 07:17:24 AM by Hortlund »

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2002, 07:21:23 AM »
Quote
Option 3: Remove all Palestinians from the West Bank/Gaza Strip

To where?

Option 5
Rather than moving 3 million people into an area that cannot accomodate them, move 60,000 settlers back into Israel and build a wall around the West Bank.

Gaza is not capable of holding all the Palestinians. It is approx 1/3 the size of Hong Kong.

Option 5 is the only solution, and most people in Israel support it. It will happen eventualy, it's really just a question of how many more people die before it is implemented.

Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2002, 07:36:32 AM »
The complete withdrawal of all IDF from the occupied territories
The complete withdrawal of Jewish settlements from the occupied territories
The border between Isreal and the Occupied territories controlled by the United Nations
Jerusalem turned into a international city administered by the United Nations
The United Nations commisioning an arbitration council to settle water, immigration problems between Isreal and the Occupied territories.

 Tronsky
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2002, 07:55:17 AM »
A great philosopher of current times I know once said "Chaos is cash to someone..."[/i] and it applies here..the Saudi's, Iraq, probably Iran, maybe Syria, definately Libia, all give money to Hammas.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2002, 07:58:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by -tronski-
The complete withdrawal of all IDF from the occupied territories
The complete withdrawal of Jewish settlements from the occupied territories
The border between Isreal and the Occupied territories controlled by the United Nations
Jerusalem turned into a international city administered by the United Nations
The United Nations commisioning an arbitration council to settle water, immigration problems between Isreal and the Occupied territories.

 Tronsky


Sounds good on paper, doesnt it.

However, take into consideration that the UN has pledged to defend Israels borders before. Once before the 1967 war (that time they did not do anything when the Egyptians broke all agreements and began remilitarizing the Sinai) and once in Lebanon (that time they didnt do anyting when the Hezbollah attacked IDF troops or civlians. Besides, I dont think Israel trusts anyone but themselves to defend their borders.

What exactly do you mean when you say "international city"?

The UN commisioning an arbitration council to settle water rights and immigration problems? So what happens when the two parties dont reach any agreement? Or what happens when the council rules in one way or the other? Do you think the losing part will just say "fine then, at least we tried"?

As for the Settlers, they wont move. For some reason unbeknownst to me these guys value that land more than their own life. The Israeli government would then be presented with the options of either leave them in place or try to move them by force, somehow I doubt any government would survive such a forced transfer.  

As for ther IDF, as long as the settlers stay they will have to stay. No Israeli government would survive abandoning the settlers.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2002, 08:03:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

To where?

Option 5
Rather than moving 3 million people into an area that cannot accomodate them, move 60,000 settlers back into Israel and build a wall around the West Bank.

Gaza is not capable of holding all the Palestinians. It is approx 1/3 the size of Hong Kong.

Option 5 is the only solution, and most people in Israel support it. It will happen eventualy, it's really just a question of how many more people die before it is implemented.


Well, the problem with the "move the settlers"-theory is that it is the Israelis who hold the upper hand on the West Bank. And the Israeli government will never attempt to force transfer all of its citizens. The government would simply collapse. So whether you like it or not, that option is out.

As I have been trying to point out, there are 4 questions that are unsolveable.
Water rights
Jerusalem
Settlers
Refugees

The Israelis and the Pals will never reach an agreement on these four issues. That rules out any diplomatic settlement of the conflict.

What is left then is either to continue the way it is today (most probable) or go to an all out war (lesser probability).

Sooner or later that war will come though, and until then, Israel will do whatever she can to prevent more terrorist acts.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2002, 08:34:21 AM »
" .... will cease to exist!"

another premature explosion in Israel, bombing of French diplomats convoy in Pakistan ..... sick freaks

these are just excuses for a few to show their hate and evil, I think they could give a crap about "their cause"

Now with the fame & glory the kids in Palestine are getting for doing these disgusting acts of violence, what else are they going to do? If you have your parents telling you they'd be very proud if you went and blew yourself up :rolleyes:  - what else do these kids going to do? As stated above, I think the average Pal has about a third grade education at best, not to mention being asre backwards in their way of living and thinking in this day and age...

Israel has to do what is best for Israel and America has to stand with them.

Screw the Arabs and all the other terrorist lovers !!!

"He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt and kill him first," Sharon said. "Israel will act strongly" against Palestinian militants, said Sharon, adding that the mission of the previous military offensive has not been completed. "The battle continues and will continue, until all those who believe that that they can make gains through the use of terror will cease to exist," he said in Washington.

Here's his entire statement made just before leaving the US last night:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/sharon_text_1&printer=1

That about sums it up...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2002, 08:36:52 AM by Eagler »
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