same old - same old

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan
The key difference, and the reason that Palestinians haven't hated Jordan, is that they had similar rights to the Jordanians. In the West Bank, Palestinians have few rights. No vote, subject to military justice, reduced water supplies etc.

In Jordan, the Palestinians were given Jordanian citizenship.

Nashwan, please do tell me that you are aware of the fact that Jordan and PLO was at war in the 70ies. Because from what you wrote here it doesnt seem that way.

[Nashwan]

The PLO was a threat to the Jordanian government. The Jordanian government cracked down on the PLO, hard. The PLO fled to Lebanon.

The Jordanian government did not crack down on Palestinians, by and large. Palestinians in Jordan now have equal rights to Jordanians. Descrimination exists, like in most countries.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan
The PLO was a threat to the Jordanian government. The Jordanian government cracked down on the PLO, hard. The PLO fled to Lebanon.

Hm, fun way to describe a civil war "The government cracked down on the PLO, hard." Also, I see you left out the Syrian intervention in this little "crackdown".

[Udie]

Originally posted by Hortlund


Hm, fun way to describe a civil war "The government cracked down on the PLO, hard." Also, I see you left out the Syrian intervention in this little "crackdown".

 Look hortlund  you don't get it.  It's ok for arabs to kill arabs, when those scummy animal dirty jews start killing them when that's when you're supposed to get angry.

 Haven't you learned anything yet?  Everybody on the planet is allowed to defend themselves except the Jews/Isreali's.

[Nashwan]

Udie, the difference was the Jordanians granted full rights to the Palestinians. They didn't come up with a plan to make the Palestinians live under an apartheid state.

Israel has a few choices:

War
Get out of the West Bank
Annex the West Bank and make the Palestinians Israeli citizens

So far, Israel has chosen war.

[Udie]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Udie, the difference was the Jordanians granted full rights to the Palestinians. They didn't come up with a plan to make the Palestinians live under an apartheid state.

Israel has a few choices:

War
Get out of the West Bank
Annex the West Bank and make the Palestinians Israeli citizens

So far, Israel has chosen war.

 dude it's funny how you just leave out 40 years of history.  Isreal has made comprimise after comprimise for as long as I can remember only to be met with kidnappings, hijackings and for the past 10 years suicide/homicide bombings.

 Everybody beats around the bush and doesn't look at the true cause of the problem which IMNSHO is the palestinian/arab need want or desire to kill all Jews on this planet.  Until that is solved there will never be peace in the region or until they finaly get their wish and anialate Isreal.

 You have to know that Arafat is working for Sadam to keep pressure off of him and keep the world's attention on Isreal/Palestine and away from Iraq/Iran/N.Korea.  It's total roadkill how anybody could support these people.  They are our freaking enemy for God's sake, remember the dancing on 9/11!!!!!!!  They have always been our enemy and probably always will be.

 So screw them and their state, they don't deserve it if they can't figure out to NOT kill Isreali's, they deserve what they have earned which is what they have now, a toejam life in a toejam land.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Udie, the difference was the Jordanians granted full rights to the Palestinians.  

Here's a newsflash. They did all that AFTER THEY HAD KICKED THE PLO OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY.

See, somehow the Jordan government realized that maybe it wasnt the smartest thing in the world to let a terrorist organisation exist inside its borders.

Draw your own conclusions from that.

And please dont come up with some "uh.. uh.. .but Ben Guiron said in 1947 that he was a terrorist and wanted to kill arabs, so the Israelis started it" -lame lard assed attempt to switch subject again.

[Nashwan]

Everybody beats around the bush and doesn't look at the true cause of the problem which IMNSHO is the palestinian/arab need want or desire to kill all Jews on this planet

What is one of the central claims of the Palestinians?

The right to return. The right to moe to Israel, become Israeli citizens. There is very little support for the terrorists amongst Israeli Arabs.

Israeli Arabs are much sought after as marriage partners in the West Bank/Gaza, because marrying an Israeli Arab gives the West Bank/Gaza Arab a chance at Israeli citizenship.

They don't want to destroy Israel, they want to BE Israel.

You have to know that Arafat is working for Sadam to keep pressure off of him and keep the world's attention on Isreal/Palestine and away from Iraq/Iran/N.Korea

The Palestinian problem goes back way before Sadam.

The essence of the problem is the Palestinians live in refugee camps, and have done for 50 years. They want something better.

Here's a newsflash. They did all that AFTER THEY HAD KICKED THE PLO OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY.

Another Newsflash:

Israel kicked the PLO out of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967.

What has Israel done with the territories since then? Most of the men of the West Bank have lived their entire lives under Israeli occupation. In all that time, they have been treated as non-citizens. No votes, no representation, just a military government, military law, curfews, travel bans, exile, troops on the street, houses demolished, all while Israel is bringing in it's own citizens to live the high life at their expense.

You can bet that after 35 years of occupation, you'd be pretty pissed as well.

See, somehow the Jordan government realized that maybe it wasnt the smartest thing in the world to let a terrorist organisation exist inside its borders.

Jordan recognized that it couldn't just keep cracking down on the Palestinians, and made them citizens.

35 years Israel ran the territories. What exactly did it give the Palestinians? Where was the effort to integrate them, or set up alternative leadership?

What genius came up with the plan that would have had permament military occupation, and expected no revolt?

[Udie]

Nashwan spoke....


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Everybody beats around the bush and doesn't look at the true cause of the problem which IMNSHO is the palestinian/arab need want or desire to kill all Jews on this planet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What is one of the central claims of the Palestinians?

 I believe the destruction of Isreal is still in their charter....

The right to return. The right to moe to Israel, become Israeli citizens. There is very little support for the terrorists amongst Israeli Arabs.

 Who to say that will not happen?  Gotta get past step one to get to the end of the line though.  Step one is to get the crazy notion out of their heads that Jews need to be slaughtered.  What's so hard to understand about that?
 

Israeli Arabs are much sought after as marriage partners in the West Bank/Gaza, because marrying an Israeli Arab gives the West Bank/Gaza Arab a chance at Israeli citizenship.

 Well having sex seems like a lot better of a way to do that then by bombing inocents....
 

They don't want to destroy Israel, they want to BE Israel.

ROFLOL!!! That is one of the stupedist things I've ever read on the subject.   Oops just too bad that the only way for them to be Isreal is to kill all the Jews eh?


quote:
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You have to know that Arafat is working for Sadam to keep pressure off of him and keep the world's attention on Isreal/Palestine and away from Iraq/Iran/N.Korea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Palestinian problem goes back way before Sadam.

 yup you can trace it to the old testement....

The essence of the problem is the Palestinians live in refugee camps, and have done for 50 years. They want something better.


 That's a BS excuse.

 Well why don't the make something better?  There's land there.  Why don't some of the terror organizers start organising "building clubs" and actually build themselves a better place to live.  They get untold millions of dollars from US, the UN the EU all the other murdereing arab countries.  What do they do with the money?  They use it to kill Jews instead of trying to better their own people.  When 70% say they support the murderes that to me makes 70% of them murdering.  Which makes them terrorist, which is why I wonder why do we even talk to them?

 They are reaping what they have sown and deserve every bit of it.  They are lucky they still exist....


 Where's the Palestinian peace movement?  Is there one?  They want death and death they shall have........

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Another Newsflash:

Israel kicked the PLO out of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967.

What has Israel done with the territories since then? [SNIP pointless drivel]

And then Israel let the PLO back in thanks to the Oslo deal..remember? And when did the suicide bombing campaign pick up steam? Hmmm....COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE A CONNECTION?

Jordan recognized that it couldn't just keep cracking down on the Palestinians, and made them citizens.

35 years Israel ran the territories. What exactly did it give the Palestinians? Where was the effort to integrate them, or set up alternative leadership?

What genius came up with the plan that would have had permament military occupation, and expected no revolt?

Jordan kicked out the PLO in a war, after that, no more terrorist actions inside Jordan. Israel should do the same thing.

What did those 35 years give the Pals? Who knows? Who cares?

[Nashwan]

What did those 35 years give the Pals? Who knows? Who cares?

The Palestinians care.

That's why they think killing Israelis is a good idea. 35 years of occupation brought them nothing. As you say, they weren't suicide bombing Israel until recently.

So, 30 years of occupation got them nothing. War is going to look like a good option at that point.

Well why don't the make something better? There's land there. Why don't some of the terror organizers start organising "building clubs" and actually build themselves a better place to live.

Palestinians do build themselves places to live. Israel knocks them down again. About 3000 Palestinian houses were demolished by Israel since 1987.

Jordan kicked out the PLO in a war, after that, no more terrorist actions inside Jordan. Israel should do the same thing.

Israel did do the same thing.

However, instead of following it up with fairness and justice, Israel followed it up with military occupation.

Ever heard the phrase "no taxation without representation"? Palestinians had to pay taxes to Israel as well, even though they had no votes.

America fought it's war of independence over much less.

[Hortlund]

Hm...I cant help but notice that you "forgot" to comment on one of my lines there...Let me write that again.

And then Israel let the PLO back in thanks to the Oslo deal..remember? And when did the suicide bombing campaign pick up steam? Hmmm....COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE A CONNECTION?

[Udie]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Hm...I cant help but notice that you "forgot" to comment on one of my lines there...Let me write that again.

 Dude the terrorist/murderer supporters gloss over alot of facts.  Really any fact that goes against their argument.

 Here's an example brought to us by Nashwan...

That's why they think killing Israelis is a good idea. 35 years of occupation brought them nothing. As you say, they weren't suicide bombing Israel until recently.

 That was before Isreal let them have the PA which is when the bombings started. What 9 or 10 years ago?  Before that they resorted to hijackings and kidnappings.  Don't forget the Isreali olympic team, all the planes hijacked inthe 80's and 70's.  The kidnappings of Jews and Americans, executions of kidnap victims.    

 They had there chance under Clinton (probobly the best thing he did as president) and they chose violence and death for Isreal.  So that's what they are being paid back in dividends now....

[Nashwan]

And then Israel let the PLO back in thanks to the Oslo deal..remember? And when did the suicide bombing campaign pick up steam? Hmmm....COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE A CONNECTION?

Probably yes.

The Palestinians have a little more freedom now than they did.

They also, after a few years of hope, finally realised with Baraks proposals that they wouldn't get free of the occupation.

Here's an alternative that could bring peace:

Israel is occupied by the Arabs. Jews are allowed to remain, but with no say in the running of the country. Jews can pay taxes, but not have representation.

Jews will have to apply to the Arab authorities for the right to travel abroad, and to travel to different parts of Palestine.

Jews will have their water rationed, and will give up the best land for Arab families to move in. Any Jew that speaks out against this situation will be exiled.

The government will hold all the land confiscated from the Jews "for the benefit of the Arab people"

Sounds fair?

Bear in mind, that you seem to think the above scenario is fine, as long as the words Jews and Arabs are switched.

That sounds like racism to me.

[~Caligula~]

There`s a little problem with that Nashwan.
Those jews would be slaughtered very quickly,so there would be nobody to restrict with those rules.

The Palestinians have a little more freedom now than they did.

There You go.
They get a "little more freedom",what they do with it?
Off course they go kill jews,brainwash their own childeren so all they`ll want to do when they grow up is to kill jews.

I think it was a mistake of the israelis not to give the pals citizenship in 1967,but it`s too late now.If these maniacs have free range to roam Israel now,there would be total caos.