Author Topic: The P47  (Read 1225 times)

Offline AKcurly

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The P47
« on: February 07, 2001, 03:55:00 AM »
is so badly porked in Aces High that's it almost impossible to win a fight against a decent pilot if you start from an inferior postion.  I don't care who's flying the jug, if he's at a disadvantage, he's dead.

I don't claim to know much about aircraft, but from reading Robert Johnson's book "Thunderbolt," I gather he routinely out turned 109s and 190s and could easily outclimb 190a5s (not zoom climb, just a normal nose up and wep.)

Johnson also asserted that from 30k, you could point your nose at the deck and let her rip.  Within 5k, it compressed, but, and this is important (especially to all the Johnson children born after the war), you would regain control of the aircraft before you hit the ground.  This is is in direct contrast to the 109 that fatally compresses [according to Chuck Yeager.]

The P38 has similar problems.

Pyro, when are these problems [turn rate, climb rate and compression] going to be addressed?

AKcurly

Offline Jochen

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The P47
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2001, 04:07:00 AM »
Nothing will be done if you dont show data that proves P-47 is porked. And that is the way it should be.

P-47 is not a dogfighter, it is a energy fighter so you should usually die if you engage enemy from disadvantaged position ie. you has less energy.

If you look climb charts P-47D-30 will outclimb 190A-5 at 25 kft by 500 fpm. At 3 kft 190A-5 will outclimb P-47D-30 by 1250 fpm. So yes, P-47D-30 can actually outclimb 190A-5.

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Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

funked

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The P47
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2001, 04:32:00 AM »
LOL

Hit the books Curly...

Offline StSanta

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The P47
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2001, 04:49:00 AM »
The P47 is *very* similar in capability to the 190A8, but outdoes it in ground pounding.

It outclimbs the A8 (and the A5) as altitude increases.

I'm not sure about whether it outturned say a G2 - when it comes to turning, there's a lot of variables. One engagement the 47 might have more speed than a 109, put some vertical in and easily outturn it.

Therefore, I prefer hard data to pilot anecdotes. Hell, there are anecdotes of A5's outturning spits out there.

So, if there's some hard data, then it should be fixed. But to base it solely on anecdotes is, IMHO, a bad way to go, because there are so many conflicting ones.

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Offline Vermillion

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The P47
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2001, 06:35:00 AM »
Hey Funked, wasn't it you that compiled the post on AGW (or here I can't remember) a while back that listed pilot anecdotal comments about how great they were, and if you followed the logic around it ended up that a Fokker DVII should be able to kill a P-51 Mustang (or something along that order).


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Offline Jochen

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The P47
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2001, 06:45:00 AM »
 
Quote
Hey Funked, wasn't it you that compiled the post on AGW (or here I can't remember) a while back that listed pilot anecdotal comments about how great they were, and if you followed the logic around it ended up that a Fokker DVII should be able to kill a P-51 Mustang (or something along that order).

I'm sure Fokker DVII is able to kill a P-51 Mustang, it is only highly unlikely  

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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline Lephturn

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The P47
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2001, 07:48:00 AM »
A couple of points to remember here:

1.  Johnson's P47 "Lucky", was not what we have here.  His crew had ground down the rivets, and polished the whole airframe.  His mechanic had modified the boost system wategate pressures so that "Lucky" could pull 72" WG!  With an overboosted hotrodded Jug, he was both faster and climbed better than a stock Jug, let alone a 190.

2.  Johnson's combat almost all took place at high altitude.  The Jug will "out turn"  and "out climb" many planes if you are fighting at 27k!  When is the last time you got in a scrap with a LW plane at that altitude in AH?  Fight at high altitude and your Jug will perform alot more like Johnson reports his did.

3.  The Jug is NOT a turnfighter, nor should it be.  It's a high-altitude, high-speed, BEAST with lots of guns.  Use it's power, dive, and zoom climb, and you can well in it.

I am a P-47 fan myself, and I also have Johnson's book.  I think the P-47 is modelled pretty well here in Aces High.  With the possible exception of it's WEP performance, it seems right to me.  Indeed, the P-47 is a tougher competitor in AH than it seems to be in most other games.  FYI, I was 69 kills for 14 deaths in the P-47D-25 last tour, that's nearly 5:1 (I'm normally not that successful in any plane).  There is no vulching ackless fields in that number either, those are strictly good A2A kills.  I don't do A2G, the D30 is my A2G ride and I've only got a few sorties in it.  I'm also a terrible shot, I run about 5-7% gunnery, another reason I fly the Jug.    That's not too shabby for a plane that is fighting in a position far from it's optimal one... high altitude.

You are right though, a P-47 with a disadvantage versus a good pilot is likely dead meat.  Guess what, any plane in the arena with a disadvantage versus a good pilot is likely dead meat!  Some are better at turning the tables than others, but you'd have to be nuts to start a fight in an energy fighter from and energy disadvantage.

Keep in mind that in almost all of the fights Johnson talks about, he either starts with a huge advantage, or the enemy does something stupid.  Heck, I'd wager that a good number of his kills come from Luftwobblies trying to dive away from the Jug.. obviously not a good move!  And Johnson is talking about his hot-rodded Jug at high altitude, not the "average" Jug we have fighting at low altitude.  

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You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

Offline Westy

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The P47
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2001, 08:44:00 AM »
 If I'm in a 47 and I run into a coalt or higher con, other than a 51 or a 38, at 25k or above I drool. They're meat  
 Johnson only found himself in an inferior positon once or twice. He lived the first time only by the grace of God and the Jug's construction.
 Now this is not dig at you AKCurly in any way but we don't have to many Johnsons flying these virtual planes (nor Marsellailes, Sakai's, Beurlings or Hartmans etc) and the difference really is the pilot, not so much the plane.

 You cannot expect to win in a P-47 unless you fly where the Jug shines, run into dweebs, have the advantage or Frenchy is blackmailed into sending you his films  

  -Westy

Offline Jigster

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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2001, 02:21:00 PM »
Bah, with that self-defeating additude no wonder  

A low P-47 is not dead. A low P-47 that tries to keep it's nose up, now that's dead.

- Bess

Offline NUTTZ

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The P47
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2001, 03:00:00 PM »
I love the p-47, Stupid me, but i like turn fighting spitties in it, they never expect that, and usually become relaxed. My 8-50's shred stuff really fast. But then again i am NUTTZ.

NUTTZ

Offline ra

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The P47
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2001, 04:15:00 PM »
<<<I don't care who's flying the jug, if he's at a disadvantage, he's dead.>>>

There are probably a dozen regular Jug pilots in AH who would disagree with you on this.  A Jug is a good match 1-v-1 against the Hog, P-51, 190A-8, and to a lesser degree, the 190A-5 and 109Gs.  This of course assumes that the % fuel load of each plane is about the same.

As far as winning a fight against an opponent who starts in a superior position (ie more E) you have to first outfly him no matter what kind of plane you're in.  If you can sucker him into bleeding his E advantage, the Jug can handle the ensuing knifefight.

The Jug can't handle girly planes too well 1 on 1 without an E advantage, but neither can any of the other planes listed above.

LJK Raubvogel

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The P47
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2001, 05:09:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by ra:

The Jug can't handle girly planes too well 1 on 1 without an E advantage, but neither can any of the other planes listed above.

girly planes....hehehehe    


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[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 02-07-2001).]

Offline Pongo

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The P47
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2001, 05:39:00 PM »
In reading my VIII fighter command at war book. I got the feeling that the Jug Pilots were not too sure who could out turn who vs the 109 and 190. But they knew that if the german was diving on them they could out turn him. IE They didnt seem to get into many co-E Co-alt turn fights. Not that they recounted to the officals anyway. Maybe most of the guys that did were dead.

If I remember correctly from long previos posts the performance for the spit V we have can only be achieved by filling and sanding and polishing and several other non standard things.
I think getting a hot rod P47 is an excellent Idea. If you are willing to get a lemon on the next run.

Offline Buzzbait

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The P47
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2001, 07:50:00 PM »
S! all

What you need here is a P-47D-21 Razorback.  This plane weighed 13300 lbs fully fueled with 8 .50's.  It had Water injection and the Hamilton Standard Paddle Blade prop.  At 50% fuel (152.5 gallons) it weighed 12385 lbs with a wing area of 300 Square feet.  That translates to a wingloading of 41.28lbs per Square foot.  

The P-47's you have here weigh in around 14,500lbs fully loaded, for a wingloading of approx. 48.33 lbs per square foot.

The high speed turnrate of the P-47 also needs to be worked on.  This aircraft responded extremely well to inputs at high speed, both in turn and roll.  It did burn energy prodigiously, but it responded.

I also think if this Sim is serious, it should also look at allowing pilots to manually set the level of their boost if the manual control was available.  In the P-47 the pilot could set boost to considerably above the factory reccommended levels, and pilots in dangerous situations routinely did.  Most of their engines held up to this kind of abuse, a few didn't.  The Pratt and Whitney 2800 was renowned for shrugging off the overboost and begging for more.

Offline iculus

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The P47
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2001, 08:57:00 PM »
The AH P-47 sings at alt.

I'll look up the link, but experimentally, they could overboost to the point that the engine was putting out 3600hp ...for two days!!  The engine wouldn't die!!