"They raped everyone from eight to 80"

[Boroda]

The recent discussion with our Finnish friends

AM, it's interesting, and I have given sources about concentration camps in Karelia there.

What stunned me was the fact that Finnish occupants divided Karelian population by nationalities. Russians were simply thrown behind the barbed wire to starve to death, while Saams and other Ugro-Finns were granted special stripes on their clothes to distinguish them as "relative nationality"... (i mean "nationality that is a relative to Finns")

I have read this in translation from Finnish. Staga and other respectable people didn't tell me if there is any information about it availible in Finland or - sigh - told in schools.

About 1939 - it's all full of crap from both sides, but what happened in June, 1941, completely proved that Soviet government wasn't mistaken talking about "indirect agression".

Hortlund, you value "democracy" and other Western principles, so, tell me: why the heck you ask ME to bring the proof that Russians didn't "rape everyone from 8 to 80"!? And answer me clear and boldly: did you stop drinking brandy every morning?

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Boroda I'd like to know which kind of agression our 4-million country who had declared neutral when Hitler attacked Poland and which had absolutely slacked with all defense funding for several years could impose on russia..

Finnish people have cursed over and over again the liberal politics run in 30's that completely lacked the development of the military. It cost thousands of finnish soldiers lives - we had no ammo for artillery, lighter guns nor automatic weapons to give to the troops.

Our airforce consisted of outdated equipment and only the huge efforts of our pilots saved the situation somewhat. We still had no means to stop all of the thousands of bombers that pounded the country.

Boroda: Which sources indicate this dividing by ethnic grounds in the prison camps? And are there references (by western studies) about finland placing slavic prisoners to death camps? It's only logical to separate the enemy away from the original population of the area - they need special attention, not only because your government was sending desant groups behind the borders to spy and commit war crimes like butchering undefended civillian villages.

You're talking like finnish government was treating russians like Germans were treating jews.. That is simply not possible and the utter lack of international attention, court trials etc. show this clearly. There was nothing of the kind happening. If finland would have committed war crimes like you claim, we would have had to face the consequences (being the losing side of the war.)

March, 1940, Soviet tanks on the ice of the Finnish Gulf, Mannerheim line broken and nothing to stop them on the way to Helsinki...

It was a heroic attempt - but Soviet victory was only a question of time  Anyway - my hat off for Suomi people.


__________________
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

The troops were on the ice near Viipuri which is about 250km east of Helsinki. Viipuri was lost afterwards in the peace agreements and is now in a degradant state like the rest of the russian country. Viipuri and other karelia locations are the only places in the world where you can still see 1940's buildings and milieu in its original state.

I have visited Viipuri 4 years ago so I have seen it with my own eyes.

[Fishu]

--am--,

How often you've seen a country give land for someones 'national safety'?
If theres big military base and foreign owned land in your country, isn't that a threat to national safety when you're not fully trusting your 'guests'?
So, Finnish national safety counted less than soviet unions?


Boroda,

They do teach pretty well in schools, of bad and good sides of Finland. (unlike in some countries, where only good sides are told and bad sides not, or made to sound rightful at very least)

I have never heard of any unusual concentration camps that didn't exist in other countries of WWII.

Besides, whos fault it ultimately was that these would have to been made?
Finland can't be kept totally responsible of every glitche, when soviet union began the unrightful war for their "national safety".
Without soviet union attacking, this would have never happend and people would have lived in peace and alot of natives wouldn't have had to flee from kareliya.


From both of you, I have not heard one single bad thing of soviet union.
There can be only one meaning for that, which isn't the nice one.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda

Hortlund, you value "democracy" and other Western principles, so, tell me: why the heck you ask ME to bring the proof that Russians didn't "rape everyone from 8 to 80"!? And answer me clear and boldly: did you stop drinking brandy every morning?

Again Boroda, I have posted my sources, or the proof if you will. Remember that post by me where I named four books, and posted some quotes from those books? Those are what we call "sources" or "proof". The authors of those books are highly respected historians who have spent years researching their books, Cornelius Ryan even spent years interviewing eyewitnesses, people who were there. Then there is you, Boroda. Without any proof without any sources whatsoever, you claim that everything that those four authors has written about Soviets raping German women is a lie. You also imply that they are somehow interested in discrediting the Soviet Union more (as if that was possible). Your only "proof" for your outrageous accusations is some conversation you claim to have had with some soviet ww2 veteran who said that any rapist was shot. I then posted a source showing that not until May 17th 1945 did any such order exist. Apparently frustrated by this, you then call me a neo nazi.  

So on the one hand you have me, making a statement and then backing that statement up with several sources. On the other hand there is you, claiming that everything said by me, or everything written in those books is a lie. When I ask you for your sources, you call me a neo nazi.

The way it works is that the person making a statement has the burden of proof for that statement. I made the first statement, and I have proved that statement to be correct. You then have two options, either you make a statement of your own that you then can try to prove OR you can try to discredit my statement by attacking my sources or my evidence. In this thread you have done neither. Instead you went with option 3:
Act like an idiot, make wild accusations to shift focus from the uncomfortable truth, ignore any evidence and pretend it doesnt exist. Start long ramblings about completely irrelevant things (see am's cute sidetrack regarding Aland Islands) avoid any attempt to get back to the subject. <--Option 3 is also known as "the soviet way".

[--am--]

The examples are necessary to you? For example Cuba is compelled to give ground to America for her military base. Afghanistan to give ground to America for her national safety. China long bore England in Hongkong.

If the Finnish politics such idiots, that did not understand, that if to give up USSR in its request, it is war, the war means it is their fault. It is necessary to be able to search the compromise, instead of war. Therefore " the Winter war " is fault of Finns (or their politics).

You nothing heard about concentration camps for the Japanese living in America in time WWII? You very little to know about a real history and it is a lot of to know about a virtual history created propagation.

Yes, I know many bad things about USSR, it is even more bad things about Russia. But you it to not know. You to tell fairy tales, instead of about real bad

[MrRiplEy[H]]

--am-- so you are telling now that finland was making terrorist attacks on russian soil (afghanistan)

OR.. Finland was invinting nuclear weapons on its ground to pose a threat to the neighbour country (Cuba)

OR was finland a SMALL and POORLY ARMED NEUTRAL and FRIENDLY country?

Our government was stupid enough to think that the agreements between our countries were enough to stop you from attacking us and completely neglected the funding of the army. What a historical mistake that was.

Your comparisons are completely without base in reality and ridiculous. Nothing justifies your attack on finland and your current leadership admits it also. The attack was part of the Ribbentrop agreement which was made between the allied russia and nazi germany.

Oh, you forgot now that russia had a non-agression pact with germany and secret plans to divide europe to russia / germany untill hitler chose to break it with a surprise attack?

[grobar]

I was lazy to read all posts.

Lada is officially licensed by Fiat or at least this is the common knowledge here - certainly it is not presented as original russian design.

What do you mean by "lower material quality"? My father has Lada 1500 (2108) for 22 years and it still looks and runs like if it is new. I do not know how many western cars can boast on this?

However there were many fabrications like the radio or the plane being originally invented by russians.

******

Zdravo Hristo! You the same guy who was on top Wally`s ladder 2-3 years ago!?

******

I do not see why people keep arguing on this thread? There is no way to convince am, his country is not the greatest, just, most kind, etc. You are simply loosing your time. Plz do not think all russians are like this, however. (But most still have to improve on objectivity )

[MrRiplEy[H]]

It's nice to see, Grobar, that not all russians are blinded by the stuff the communists fed you folks..

I know it is difficult to objectively look at your own country which you're proud of. Hats off to you for that.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by --am--
If the Finnish politics such idiots, that did not understand, that if to give up USSR in its request, it is war, the war means it is their fault. It is necessary to be able to search the compromise, instead of war. Therefore " the Winter war " is fault of Finns (or their politics).  

You are seriously weird. By the same logic, Poland is to blame for ww2, since Germany only wanted the Danzig corridor but the Poles said no. Therefore the German attack was the fault of the Polish politician?

[--am--]

If someone has interrogated 5-6 men and they to it have told about 5-6 cases of violence, and then this man on the basis of these 5-6 cases declares, that 100.000 acts of violence and 2-3 million victims of violence, this man not the historian, and liar were accomplished.

As against you, which to read the fantastic books so-called "historians", I read the original documents of the Soviet government and Soviet militarian HQ. I can them to you result, only you not read in Russian, therefore they to you are useless. Learn Russian, read the Russian books and then you will have the right to reason on that that made Russian. For now I see, that you deny the facts, only because they you to not like. You deny the fact, fulfilment of crimes by German armies (you already to visit photo-exhibition?) you deny the fact, that Russian did not make mass crimes in Germany, because it is not pleasant to you. You are to be trusted in wild Russian and civilized Germans.

[--am--]

The Poles are really guilty in war. They to grasp a part of Czechoslovakia and they to support Germany in capture of Czechoslovakia

As to Danzig - Germany did not offer anything in an exchange, did not conduct negotiation trying to agree 2 years and simply has put forward the ultimatum.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

--am-- are you still so stupid or blind to see that official soviet documents were fabricated roadkill with no grounds on reality?

Because of the attitudes of the time people were extremely scared to give any bad reports of any operations.. The terror campaign and political purifications of Stalin ensured that nobody dared to send him bad reports about his own work. So they started writing fairytales. The official truth is polished to please the eye.

Not to mention the USSR style of fabricating history for propaganda purposes. It's very obvious like in that infantry regiment museum which has listed battles from hundreds of years where they were successful but then their last battle on finnish front where they almost all died in the 'motti' encirclement fight goes without a single remark.

This lead to the widely spread corruption that is rampant in the russian society even today.

[Boroda]

Mr.Ripley, first - Grobar is a Bulgarian

Next - you have a very strange impression about Soviet life. You, as 99% of Westerners have absolutely no idea about it. All you have is a result of endless Hollywood movies picturing USSR as an "Evil Empire".

About Finnish concentration camps - i meant that Saams and other nations relative to Finns were never sent to camps. It stunned me - looks like Finns had the nazi-like national politics with racial segregation etc. I have read in books translated from Finnish, the links are in a thread I posted. I can't spell the author's namse in Latin, but I really want someone to explain me if it's true or not.

The fact that Finns were not under trial in Nuremburg is a result of smart "changing sides" in 1944 when they understood that they have chosen the wrong ally. There are quotes from Stalin showing his respect for Suomi people for their brave resistance in 1939, i mean REAL quotes, not the roadkill Hortlund tries to feed us.

Hortlund, now I will tell you that Sweden is a corrupt semi-socialist state, much more opressive then USSR was. If you'll ask me about my sources - I'll tell you that it's based on novels by Per Valo. Nice easy reading, "The Steel Jump", "The End of 31st Department", "Police, Police - Mashed Potatoes!" etc. What should you say about my sources? Keep repeating the Propaganda Ministry roadkill if it makes you feel better, but - beware, it can lead you to very dangerous limits. I suggest you to go to Latvia to interview their SS hangmen they call "vets" and "freedom fighters", it's a good idea to collect all nazi amazinhunks in one place.

I never say that Soviet soldiers were angels, but the picture you draw is a complete nonsence. Anyway, Germans could avoid any sufferings that followed the foreign occupation if they didn't attack USSR and other countries.

Nazism got what it deserved in Nuremburg, and all it's crimes were listed and judgement given.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda
Hortlund, now I will tell you that Sweden is a corrupt semi-socialist state, much more opressive then USSR was. If you'll ask me about my sources - I'll tell you that it's based on novels by Per Valo. Nice easy reading, "The Steel Jump", "The End of 31st Department", "Police, Police - Mashed Potatoes!" etc. What should you say about my sources? Keep repeating the Propaganda Ministry roadkill if it makes you feel better, but - beware, it can lead you to very dangerous limits. I suggest you to go to Latvia to interview their SS hangmen they call "vets" and "freedom fighters", it's a good idea to collect all nazi amazinhunks in one place.

I never say that Soviet soldiers were angels, but the picture you draw is a complete nonsence. Anyway, Germans could avoid any sufferings that followed the foreign occupation if they didn't attack USSR and other countries.

Well, Sweden is ideed a semi-socialist state, not sure about the corruption though. Most northwestern european countries (Germany, Benelux, UK and Nordic countries) have practically no corruption at all. As for the opressiveness of the Swedish government compared to the USSR...well, let me just say that once agian you manage to demonstrate your ignorance.

Anyway, I suppose you were trying to make a point here somehow. But the analogy sucks bad because you are comparing a fiction writer/novelist to two of our times most recognized and appraised history writers (Beevor and Ryan). The analogy also sucks because everyone knows that you are wrong. So what should I say about your sources? Well, first, I'd say that it is only one source, second I'd say that a fiction novel might not be the best source you'd want to cling to.

As for the "propaganda ministry roadkill"...you really have no idea how unintentionally funny you are do you?  Propaganda ministry sounds so very...Russian ...somehow.

The last part of your quote is so outrageously stupid that I'm not really sure how to answer to it. I see you are desperately clinging to option 3 I described in my earlier post. Let me just point out this then, the USSR could just as easily have avoided the death of 20 million Soviet soldiers and 20 million civilians in ww2 by just surrendering on June 22nd 1941.

[Maniac]

Most northwestern european countries (Germany, Benelux, UK and Nordic countries) have practically no corruption at all

I djust luv judges/policemen,  they think they live in la la land