Author Topic: "They raped everyone from eight to 80"  (Read 4788 times)

Offline Boroda

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5755
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2002, 12:03:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by paintmaw
Boroda , do you see that black car with tinted windows outside your home ??? Better watch what you say :)


Yes, I see that car. They parked too far, on the Leningrad highway, 100 meters away from my home, but they annoy me.  They are from the FBI, and they know that I know it. I will better call 02 so our Militia will arrest them.

;) :p

Who was that provocator who mentioned the Weezer band on this forum?! I am listening to them all the time now....

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2002, 12:58:01 PM »
You have to realise the sources Boroda has been reading probably say what he is saying.

Soviet time history was infamous for being polished and biased.

Even today if you visit the St.Petersburg museum of the largest infantry unit that fought on finnish borders, you won't be able to find even one remark of the 20 000 men they lost in the battles (which constituted about 80% of its manpower at the time.)

Boroda: Western sources claim a totally opposite truth to the one you're offering us. Maybe it's propaganda, maybe its truth. It's extremely difficult to know 100% sure. All I know is that the soviet-russian official history has been altered heavily and if youre basing your comments on that information, I'd take it with a grain of salt.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2002, 02:03:54 PM »
Boroda,

Denial and blind belief creates fanatism.

Just tell us also how soviet POW camps were good place compared to POW camps of other nations and we'll get a good laugh.

Offline grobar

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2002, 03:03:57 PM »
The Khazars were turkic tribe not jewish. But they accepted judaism after weighting the political
importance of all three religions (pretty much the same way my people did). In those times religion was a way for influence, etc. like today is foreign investments. The Christianitty was tool of Byzantium - a large threat on their south borders, Islam was accepted by the powerful Bulgaria at Volga on their northern borders. So they chose judaism.

Later when Khazar Khanate was destroyed they dispersed all over Eastern Europe. The so called ashkenzi jews. BTW considerable part of the Khazar population was the conquered Bulgarian people - the part which remained on place under the oldest son of Khan Kubrat - Bat Baian - when they split in five in 670s. So part of the jewish people today are actually of bulgarian blood. :)

*******

I agree with the text on soviet army, although it might be exagerated in generalizations (numbers) and in some details and certainly is biased to hurt russians. Could be written in more objective tone. I`ve read confirming stuff in a russian magazine. And after all it makes sense with the conditions.

Excuse Boroda - it would be hard for me to accept such thing about my people as well.

As far as am - i`ve read his posts in russian forum - you try better argue with Stalin.

It is another topic how much is covered down in the West about western soldiers, as it was for soviet soldiers in the East. :P

Offline --am--

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 156
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2002, 12:54:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
All I know is that the soviet-russian official history has been altered heavily and if youre basing your comments on that information


Interestingly, and whence you know what the history is strongly changed? It to you on TV have told?

Offline --am--

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 156
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2002, 01:12:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Just tell us also how soviet POW camps were good place compared to POW camps of other nations and we'll get a good laugh.


The Canadian historian James Bacque has issued at once two books devoted to crimes of the American army against German captured and the peace citizens in 1945-ì - 1950-ì years: " Other Losses " (1989) and " Crimes and Mercies " (1997).

On the data of the author, Filtrational of camp " for German captured in the American zone
The occupations were hardly probable no more terrible, than Îñâåíöèì: " Sometimes for famine both thirst the German soldiers and the officers were compelled is a grass and to drink I wet "

( While German soldiers from the British and Canadian zones were quickly regaining their strength and were helping rebuild Europe, Germans taken by the Americans were dying by the hundreds of thousands - emaciated figures in diarrhea smeared clothing, huddling pitifully in watery holes with perhaps a scrap of cardboard over their heads and a rotten potato for supper. At times many of them were reduced to drinking urine and eating grass).

Everything, in opinion of the historian, in the American camps was lost more 100.000 German captured

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2002, 02:27:43 AM »
Boroda, you wanted sources?

Fine, I'll post some sources, then perhaps you can post your sources too? And I would appreciate it if you included some other sources than yourself and some alleged conversations with old soviet ww2 veterans.


The last battle, Cornelius Ryan, New York, Simon and Schuster,1966
ISBN: 0684803291

In his book, Ryan personally interviewed 5 eyewitnesses and/or victims, they are:
Ursula Köster, mother of 3, victim
Ilse Antz, victim
Josef Michalke and Alfons Matzker, Jesuits in Charlottenburg's St. Canisius Church, witnesses
Father Michalke tells of one of his parishioners, Hannelore von Cmuda, a 17-year-old girl, was repeatedly raped by a mob of drunken Red Army men; when they were finished they shot the girl three times.

Margarete Promeist, victim "wave after wave of Russians came into my shelter plundering and raping. Women were killed if they refused. Some were shot and killed anyway. In one room alone I found the bodies of six or seven women, all lying in the position in which they were raped, their heads battered in."

[Note, these 5 testimonies are evidence enough to get a conviction in any trial. As a sidenote, there are several accounts of German warcriminals being convicted on evidence far less than this.]

The Fall of Berlin 1945, Antony Beevor, Viking Press 2002
ISBN: 0670030414

My original post in this thread is a review of this book, let me just highlight a part of it for you:
"One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in Berlin, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to be much higher among the 1.4 million who had suffered in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least 2 million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape."

"Can't he understand it if a soldier has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?" Stalin's retort to a protest from Yugoslav Community Milovan Dijilas about Soviet troops raping Romanian, Croatian and Hungarian women.

[Note that Ryan only writes about rapes in Berlin, while Beevor include all the eastern parts of Germany]

Anthony Read and David Fisher, Berlin Rising: The Biography of a City (New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1994

You might find this quote interesting:
For nearly two weeks after the fall of the city, the Soviet authorities turned a blind eye to the sexual assaults, and to the looting and robbery that went on unchecked. Clearly they believed their men deserved 'a little fun', as Stalin described it, after their years of fighting. Then, suddenly, the party was over: from 15 May, discipline was restored, and any Red Army man who stepped out of line was liable to be shot.

Perhaps those veterans you refer too are talking about that order? And perhaps they have chosen to forgot what took place before May 15th 1945?  

And if you know German:

Die grosse Flucht. Es begann an der Weichsel. Das Ende an der Elbe. Jurgen Thorwald Neuer Kaiser V., Klf. 1991.
ISBN: 370434057X

One of the legacies of the Soviet occupation of Germany has been that, at least until very recently, East German women of the wartime generation referred to the Red Army war memorial in Berlin as "the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist."

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2002, 02:37:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
What a pile of roadkill...


They all say they were disappointed and angry (if you can describe this feeling in such a way), because they all saw what nazis did to their home land, and their own command made any attempt of revenge impossible...


LOL!!

Although it was nice of you to warn us that you were about to post some serious roadkill, I find the highlighted part of your quote so outrageously stupid that I have to question your mental health. There are two alternatives here, either you are sincere and in desperate need of a history teacher, OR you are trolling with about as much taste as if someone would troll about the holocaust.

Offline --am--

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 156
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2002, 03:02:35 AM »
You advertise this roadkill with such pathos as if the American or English soldiers were not engaged in violence. Or you hate only Russian and read the books in which a lot of to dirt about Russian. I hope that you not the racist and consequently I recommend to read the book "CONQUEROR'S ROAD" (Osmar White, 1966). In it some mentions about rapes perfect by the American soldiers in Germany in 1945-m. Were especially distinguished the negro. One American officer has noticed to the author (he was the military correspondent), that of the soldier it is impossible to deprive of this right in won to the country. The punishments were, by the way to tell, rather soft (deprivation of the monthly money contents).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2002, 03:06:19 AM by --am-- »

Offline --am--

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 156
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2002, 03:09:32 AM »
del

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2002, 03:25:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by --am--
You advertise this roadkill with such pathos as if the American or English soldiers were not engaged in violence. Or you hate only Russian and read the books in which a lot of to dirt about Russian. I hope that you not the racist and consequently I recommend to read the book "CONQUEROR'S ROAD" (Osmar White, 1966). In it some mentions about rapes perfect by the American soldiers in Germany in 1945-m. Were especially distinguished the negro. One American officer has noticed to the author (he was the military correspondent), that of the soldier it is impossible to deprive of this right in won to the country. The punishments were, by the way to tell, rather soft (deprivation of the monthly money contents).


???

Offline Naso

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1535
      • http://www.4stormo.it
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2002, 04:18:38 AM »
I am sure a big numbers of rapes has been committed by Soviet and German soldiers, even other warcrimes....

BUT,

I want to ask you, Steve (asking you only because you started this nice flamewar ;) ):

Do you believe the other soldiers NEVER committed such acts?

Do you believe this is a peculiar trait of the Soviet soldiers?

Do you are in some way relative of McCarthy?

:D ;)
:P

Offline Montezuma

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 959
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2002, 04:19:01 AM »
Whatever happend, the Germans leadership could have prevented most of it by accepting an orderly surrender instead of making it necessary to conquer nearly all of Germany by force.  

Or maybe by not starting the whole thing in the first place.

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2002, 04:36:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso
I am sure a big numbers of rapes has been committed by Soviet and German soldiers, even other warcrimes....

BUT,

I want to ask you, Steve (asking you only because you started this nice flamewar ;) ):

Do you believe the other soldiers NEVER committed such acts?

Do you believe this is a peculiar trait of the Soviet soldiers?

Do you are in some way relative of McCarthy?

:D ;)
:P


I know that soldiers from all sides committed the exact same crime against civilians on all sides. They were punished when/if caught however. The scale, brutality and acceptance of the Soviet rapes are unparrallelled though. The only thing remotely close are the Japanese troops behaviour in China.

Two million rape victims in the eastern parts of Germany, Naso. The number is staggering, two million...

I am not related to McCarthy in any way that I know of.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
"They raped everyone from eight to 80"
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2002, 04:44:23 AM »
AM I live 250km from St.Petersburg so I have had the chance to verify all this with my own eyes. This is also confirmed by several russian / estonian people I know.

Are you trying to tell us now that the communist dictatorship posted out truths to its people? Like all those western patents that were 'invented' again in USSR? LOL.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone