D9 invincivility / eficiency in MA

[Hooligan]

fdiron:

Some people take that statement to mean that the victim was not maneuvering (i.e. asleep at the controls and unaware that any enemy were near).  These people argue that since most kills in aces high are not against non-maneuvering aircraft that something is wrong with the game.

What the statement actually means is that the victim wasn't watching that particular enemy at the moment and may well have been maneuvering and engaged with other enemies.

Hooligan

[MANDOBLE]

Hooligan, it seems that the only statistic valid for you is just K/D.
Statistics are much more complex that just that. In fact, K/D mean very little if you want to compare two planes unless you put the same pilots in both. Even then, you are forgetting K/T, K/S and shots per kill.

[MANDOBLE]

Karnak, try the test starting from a 200-250 mph. Each test repeated 3 times.
Mindanao map, A2, Spit and D9 50% fuel, climbing to 10k, setting 250mph and then diving (WEP on) to sea level on the lake, then zomming vertically.
Time to 10k (autoclimb), both 1:18, both climbing at 3900 fpm.
Initial acceleration better in Spit up to 350 mph. Both achieved 400 mph at the same time. It seems both achiveded same maximum top speed (unable to read the speed in spit due limits of the gauge). In the zoom, both achieved 10k again, Spit with better control (both with combattrim).

Same test without the vertical zoom, testing roll and turning:
D9 elevator auth at 500 mph is average.
Spit elevator auth at "about" 500 mph is excelent (blacking out at desire).
D9 roll rate at 500 mph is poor.
Spit roll rate at 500 mph is extremely poor.

In these test, D9 never achieved any real advantage.

Same diving test, leveling at sea level:
D9 outruns the spit due spit decceleration after reaching top speed.

Spit is not as slow as some people think. It is on pair with D9 in a 10k dive.

If you cut the room for the dive, advantage goes to the spit side, try 5k.


Hooligan, no one is saying something is wrong since most kills in aces high are not against non-maneuvering aircraft. In fact, no one is saying something is wrong. I'm simply comparing the effectivity of one plane in the environment witch was designed for against our MA environment.

[Urchin]

190A5 or even A8 are far better suited for MA. Spit is much better suited than any 190.
In other environment D9 would be a deadly foe, here it is a dogfighter (not its role) or a plane to ignore (a 400 mph one).

 

Gotta disagree with you here Mandoble.  There are two things that matter in the MA.  Speed is number 1, Turning is number 2.  Everything else is secondary.  

Speed is listed before turning because in my opinion speed will keep you alive longer.  It is also possible to make a fast plane turn better than the average pilot can, while it is impossible for even the best pilots to make a slow plane go faster than an average pilot can.  

Our MA is basically a gangbang arena, which is why turning and speed are so much more important than everything else.  It is possible for say, a P38, to outturn a 190D9... but it is impossible for the P38 to outturn 5 of them.  So in that situation, the P38 is one dead airplane.  However, if your friendly P38 gets into a fight with 5 Spitfires, it can run away to fight another day.  Or it can run away, climb, BnZ for a while, then run away again.  

For this reason, there are two types of dominant airplanes in our MA.  One type is the turning type.  That would be Spitfires, Nikis, and on a lower scale, F6F's and Zeros.  (The Zero is so seldomly used because it is SLOW.  For this reason, people use the faster Spitfire instead.  For the same reason, people used the N1K2 instead of the Spitfire until it was "nuetered").  

The other type is the fast plane.  This category includes the La-7, Yak-9U, P-51D, 109G10, 190D9, and tiffie.  All of these planes have strengths and weaknesses against the other types, but all have one thing in common.  They can EASILY outrun any of the well-turning planes.  

Most of the planes in our MA fall into neither category.  They could be called the "I fly it because I like the plane category".  In this category goes all the German planes except for those listed above, all the American planes except for those listed above (and the F6F falls in here in my opinion), the Italian planes, the Zero, and the British planes not listed above.  These planes are basically dead meat in the MA.  1 on 1 they have strengths versus other aircraft, but against the MA hordes they can't run and they can't turn.  

Even the turning planes have trouble with getting gangbanged.  That is why the "fast" planes have numbers 2 and 3 in the top 3(P-51 and La-7).  People don't like getting gangbanged, so they pick a fast plane to run away in.  

Anyway, that is my rambling.  <S> all, happy holidays.

[Tac]

", if your friendly P38 gets into a fight with 5 Spitfires, it can run away to fight another day. Or it can run away, climb, BnZ for a while, then run away again"

THAT I disagree with.

It is only true IF the spits get reeal slow, below 200mph and have NO, I repeat, NO room to dive. A p-38 will never outrun a spit if the spit is already at 250mph and/or if the spit has room to dive to its 450mph. The spit retains the high speed MUCH longer than the 38. 38 actually slows down from 500mph to 310'ish in about 6 seconds. The spit oth, doesnt slow down that fast, catches up with the 38, forcing the 38 into a turnfight which it cant win.

I've been flying the spits as of late, I've ran down 38's with ease just by waiting for them to level and try to get separation.. my spit retains the 400 mph while the 38 has slowed down below 350.. a few seconds more im catching up and the 38 either tries to zoom up (which the IX can match easily while staying in gun range) or try to dive away (again, spit accels so good in dive it catches it on many occassions.. determining factor is how fast the spit is).

Its the same issue with the n1k. Only time you will outrun them when coalt/co-e is if you survive a tight & slow sciscor fight with them ON THE DECK, manage to make have their noses pointing away from you and you leveling the 38 and WEPPING the hell outta there in a straight line. Both of them can turn with almost no loss of E and can get a LOT of E by diving a little bit or by turning with nose below horizon. 38 cant match that.

As far as the D9 goes, its a monster. Only its weak guns (compared to the other 190's with almost similar loadouts) make it a problem to fly. Otherwise it can dive mightly quickly and zoom after its horny angel cousin, the 109g10.

[MANDOBLE]

First, Merry Christmas.

Urchin, If I understand you correctly, the speed advantage is vital in our gangbang arena to be able to flee when outnumbered and in deffensive. I agree. But before thinking into flee you'll be closefighting the red ordes. D9 can count on top speed to flee, but not to kill. Cause that I find A8 or A5 better MA planes. Their diving performance is similar to the D9. And, if they survive the dive, both will have speed advantage over spits. In the other hand, both outroll and outturns the D9, and both have much more puch power than Dora.

In the case of P38, I agree with Tac, P38 will have a bad day trying to dive from a spit. In the other hand, P38 is one of the best vertical zoomers in the game, far better than D9 (unless at extreme speeds). D9 is not on par with P38 or G10 in the zooming. Even with a remarkable speed advantage, if a D9 wants to zoom away vertically from a P38, it will need a > 1000 yards separation on the top or will be dead for sure. If it is zooming behind a P38, it will need to close to 250 yards to be able to score hits. Tremendous difference ...

[GRUNHERZ]

In real life turn fighters lost speed very quickly and did not reatain it well after dives, its curious how in AH this so much diffrent, well only so after 104 FM change...

[MANDOBLE]

GRUNHERZ, personally agree with you, but statements like yours cant be defended without engeeniering data and a lot of ugly maths.

[Rude]

Put the right pilot in a D9 and it will do things which you say it cannot.

My pal -DF- in WB's was the best I have ever seen in ten years of this silliness. It did not matter what he flew against or how fast or what alt he was at, he would just kill you. How? He understood the Dora and took advantage of it's strengths one, and secondly, his gunnery was scary good. Mandoble, just because you cannot figure out how to effectively kill in the D9 outside of however you fly her, does not mean that anything is wrong with the Dora or that anything else should be perked. I have never had the thought when fighting another, that this LA7 or that Spit should be perked. Rather, what I think of is who in the world is this or this guy is good.

I play it safe in the 51 and use it's speed while fighting...the D9 would allow me much more success than I could ever hope for in the Pony, simply due to the superior roll rate...that roll rate will allow for faster and more frequent gun solutions than any aircraft offered in this sim. Gunnery is the key...those who possess the ability to actually hit what they aim at will succeed in the D9 much more than other planes, whether they are at 400ias or 250 ias. While this is true in any ride, the D9 will afford more kill options for the pilot who knows how to fly her.

You said that in the MA, boom and zoom tactics relating to the Dora are useless. That statement only says one thing to me....you need to practice

 

[wulf14]

Rude,

Is your pal -df- = 'Disco Fever'?

If so, tell him Wulfie/Wulf/etc. from WB says hello! 8)

Mike/'wulf14'

[Tac]

The d9 outzooms the 38 if its above 300mph. Ive had milenko and other 190 drivers get that D9 above that speed and go UP with that monster WEP of theirs.. 38 cant keep a zoom like that.

OTH, on a loop fight, the d9 is VERY chewy  

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
GRUNHERZ, personally agree with you, but statements like yours cant be defended without engeeniering data and a lot of ugly maths.

Of course not, otherwise we'd have planes all based on second hand reports of people who never even flew them.

Imagine the mess it would be now.

Of course, turn fighters sure seem to be pretty much the same across each game, none of them have this magical energy loss that you THINK they should have.

Tell you what, when you find some factual information regarding this other than "I agree" or "I think", let me know.

Until then, it's just some more crap piled onto the fire just to make it smell worse (and this thread is about as bad as they come).
-SW

[MANDOBLE]

I'm starting to think something is wrong with the english itsef. Is it so much imprecisse language? Or is it so difficult to understand?

Swunfe, who has said something IS wrong with the planes? Are we arguing about the plane modeling?

Posts as emptied of sense as yours are those that produce that smell.

[AKSWulfe]

You yourself "agreed" with this statement by Grunherz:

"In real life turn fighters lost speed very quickly and did not reatain it well after dives, its curious how in AH this so much diffrent, well only so after 104 FM change..."

This implies that the turn fighters are not modelled properly based on some mythical statement that turn fighters lost speed very quickly and did not retain it very well after a dive.

Hmmm, it ain't that somethings wrong with the English language- but you appear to be using that as a scapegoat when someone points out a folly in your arguments/statements.
-SW

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]

[Creamo]

Mmmmmm, Dorrrra.

Sweetest, best looking, best flying, 10 minutes of WEP cannon uber leather plane made.

Unlike flying alone, wing with a Pony and it's actually hard to get shot down.