D9 invincivility / eficiency in MA

[MANDOBLE]

MANDOBLE, What the hell are you doing at 250mph in a D-9?

Fighting. Looking for a firing solution. If you want to kill only opotunity and unawared targets, ok, keep your plane at 400 mph, else you'll need to work for the kill, and nothing easier to evade than a D9 (250 yards as maximum for snapshot) at 400 mph.

[Kieran]

Man-

I do have to thank you. I have rediscovered the A5. Having a ball, think I'll stick with it a while.

As far as our other debate, I think we see the same thing, but interpret it differently. We both know what the D9 can do, but determine success differently. In that way I suppose we will never agree. Hope you haven't taken it the wrong way.

[Karnak]

MANDOBLE,

So what you're saying is "When we use stupid tactics and give away our advantages, the Spit IX is better!"

Well, go find somewhere else to cry because you've talked your way out of all reason.

Just because you like the challenge of using the D-9 in a close dogfight don't go trying to get the Spit IX perked because it is better at doing what it was designed for that the D-9 is at doing what it wasn't designed for.

[SageFIN]

Originally posted by Karnak:
Just because you like the challenge of using the D-9 in a close dogfight don't go trying to get the Spit IX perked because it is better at doing what it was designed for that the D-9 is at doing what it wasn't designed for.

Karnak has a point. One who wishes to fly the Dora as it was designed to do should ask for the icons to perked, not the better turning planes.

[fdiron]

70% of the air to air fighter kills in World War II were kills in which the victor suprised the victim.

[MANDOBLE]

Karnak, I know you are simply unnable to understand... ...But I'll try a last attempt.

With the actual MA settings (radar, icons, etc), B&Z tactics are useless.

I agree with fdiron, in our environment there are no surprise factor. If you want to kill only unawared greens (you'll always be able to kill 20 greens in a row), your tactics are ok. D9 wasn't designed for our MA environment, D9 was designed for the Europeah Theatre.

190A5 or even A8 are far better suited for MA. Spit is much better suited than any 190.
In other environment D9 would be a deadly foe, here it is a dogfighter (not its role) or a plane to ignore (a 400 mph one).

And about speed, try the next experiment, pickup a D9, climb to 10k and then dive to get 450 mph (look the effects), then repeat the same with a Spit.

[Karnak]

With the actual MA settings (radar, icons, etc), B&Z tactics are useless.

BS.

I have both used BnZ tactics and had them used against me with success.

MANDOBLE,

You are extremely biased.  You like only a very limited selection of aircraft and campaign ceaselessly for the advancement of those aircraft.  Your statements persist in lacking all sense of fairness and balance.  I have never seen you post anything favorable about anything not German.  You are part of a small elitist clique focused around German aircraft and I am sick of it.  The attitudes that those in this clique take are extremely negative and grating.

fdiron,

That doesn't mean what you imply.  70% of pilots who were shot down were not flying along, straight and level, without a hint that enemy aircraft were in the area.  Some were, true, but not nearly 70%.

What that statement means is that 70% of pilots didn't see the aircraft pull in on them in a dogfight, didn't see the guy who blindsided them while they were manuvering for a kill, ect, ect...

It does not mean that the Luftwaffe fans fantasy, no icon arena where nobody can see any detail on direction indications beyond D 1.5 is at all realistic.

Yes, the icons do make it easier to track aircraft around you than reality, but no icons make it far, far, far harder.

I would say that 30 to 40% of the times I get shot down I didn't see the guy until he started to fire.

[Toad]

Unperked 1944 Spitfire XIV to AH!

 

Oh, the wailing, whining.. the gnashing of teeth as they bite through their leather undies!

[MANDOBLE]

Karnak, you, as usual, demostrate an absolute and radical lack of undestanding and dialogue capacity and an innate abilty to write "BS" everywhere. If your native language is not english, please, tell me and then I'll understand. I'm really sick of those like you that are unable to understand what they read. If you think I'm biased and that I am part of a small elitist clique, then its obvious you are totally mindblinded.
I'm not writing what I like or what I dislike, I'm only presenting facts. Some of you think D9 is a beast, what I say is that it could be a beast, but not in the MA. And, IMO, you have no idea of how to be success with D9 in our MA (success != K/D).

About using successfuly B&Z tactics, do you really think you are the only one able to do that in D9? There are plenty of greens around to practice it. Now try it against a good Spit pilot.

Ehem... Did you do the 450 mph dive test with Spit and D9?

[Hooligan]

From Allied Fighter Aces of WWII, by Mike Spick, 1997, Greenhill’s Books, London

Page 15

“In fighter versus fighter combat the dominant element was surprise.  Statistically, in four out of every five air combat victories the victor achieved a position of advantage before the victim became aware that he was under attack.  This statement has often been misunderstood.  It does not mean that the victim was shot down or even fired at, before he became aware of his assailant, although this did happen in many cases.  It is simply that the attacker had reached unseen a position of advantage that was difficult, although no necessarily impossible, to counter.”

As Karnak asserts, bouncing somebody who is looking at another con, or distracted in a furball, etc., etc. is included in what that widely quoted and misunderstood statistic represents.  Finger-four and the larger formations were designed specifically to prevent being caught totally unaware by an attack.  The belief that this was common presuposes that the flying formations adopted by the major combatants were all utter failures.

Tour 23 stats. K/D

190a5 1.45
190a8 1.07
190d9 1.53

Spit IX .97

190d9 vs. Spit IX 1.45

Clearly the d9 is a more effective aircraft than the other FWs or the Spit IX.  Whomever are flying the d9s are doing just fine using B&Z tactics.  They certainly aren't achieving a 1.45 k/d vs. the Spit IX by turning with them.

Hooligan

[Karnak]

450mph performance:

Spitfire MkIX:

Roll becomes very stiff, 6-7 seconds to complete a 360 degree roll.
Elevator authority remains good.  The aircraft can easily black the pilot out.
Deceleration is rapid.

Fw190D-9:
Roll becomes stiff, 3 seconds to complete a 360 degree roll.
Elevator authority is good, easily blacking the pilot out.
Deceleration is present, but not so much as in the Spitfire.

Additional notes:

The Fw190D-9 reached 450 much more rapidly than the Spitfire with both starting from 300mph.

The Fw190D-9 recovered more altitude when zooming back up from the dive after reaching a speed of 450mph.

[MANDOBLE]

Hooligan, the answer is extremelly simply. Most greens fly spit. A very small portion of greens fly D9. It is like a group of veterans against a group of learning-to-land people.
With the radar, the icons and the check six, only greens are caught by surprise, and most of the time due target fixation. These should count as 0.25 of a kill
 

[chad]

Easy way to settle this all is to add the Spitfire XIV.

in the end this message will mean nothink.

[Hooligan]

So the statistics are wrong and you're opinion is right.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Hooligan

[fdiron]

That doesn't mean what you imply. 70% of pilots who were shot down were not flying along, straight and level, without a hint that enemy aircraft were in the area. Some were, true, but not nearly 70%.

What does it mean then?  If your flying in a combat zone and you are shot down by a plane you dont see, it seems to me that you have been suprised.