me 109 with gunpods

[Grendel]

Originally posted by -aper-
Grendel

I saw lots of reports from russian pilots who claimed  they fought with He-113. It's not a prove that He-113 had ever been built.

P-51A had never been used by VVS.

I'd  better believe that FAF pilots fought with LaGG-3's

Well, they were used. As already shown below even when it was first claimed SU never had any.

Also, those gents bloody well know what a Lagg-3 was.

Mr. Karhilas description of the enemy plane also does not fit LaGG-3 at all. A square rudder, straight wing tips, full metal construction which came apart under his cannon and machine gun fire giving him a perfect look and so on. He had time there to make mental notes and has great memory. From the plain description our Kossu thought "that is a P-51" when we chatted once with him, and further speaking only confirmed it. Which Soviet plane had square rudder, straight wing tips, radiator under fuselage, P-51A/B like canopy and was used against Finland in 1944? Most paperwork says that couldn't have been a P-51 - but it was. And Karhila's P-51 shootdowns were not the only ones.

Sorry, you don't know how perfectly all proof points to P-51. The only question is where the P51s exactly came from.

Same with P-38s. We are currently working on interview of mr. Hemmo Leino, who actually encountered P-38s over Karelian isthmus and was 100% definite about his identification. WHERE those came from and why they were dogfighting there, four P-38s versus two FAF Messerchmitts, with mr. Leino trying to climb to attack with wing cannoned 109 G6/R6 - but not having enough climbrate to reach the combat. Very interesting...  He didn't have as perfect proof of mr. Karhila, but  enough time to watch the combat and speak with his squadmates afterwards.

It is all very interesting New mysteries to dig into!

[RRAM]

Originally posted by -aper-

P-51A had never been used by VVS.


 

hey aper! did you see that nice pic posted by Butch?

Buh-bye to the "the reds had no P51A" crowd

[straffo]

err RAM you've read Butch's post a bit too fast

They got ten of them which were mostly involved in tests and not operational.

[RRAM]

Originally posted by straffo
err RAM you've read Butch's post a bit too fast

 

I see a picture with a P51A with a red star on its side. Just some hours ago that was "impossible" because "the russians had no P51s at all"


Well, now they seem they had...so why should I ever think they WEREN'T used operationally?? Because I'm told so?.

Well, I also was told they had no P51s .It turns out they had .

So I do think the russkies had some P51As, and that they used them operationally, even more when there are people alive who talk about having shot down some of them. Now, you're free to believe whatever you want...

but so am I

[butch2k]

I know about the Finnish claims of shotting down some P-51, about 5 or 6 of them over a period of a couple of weeks during summer. But so far official Russian history do not mention that this aircraft have been used operationaly (while P-47 was).

I expect to know a bit more when i get a Russian book i ordered dealing with the US lend lease plane in Soviet use published a few month ago. I'll post an update as soon as i get the book.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by butch2k
I know about the Finnish claims of shotting down some P-51, about 5 or 6 of them over a period of a couple of weeks during summer. But so far official Russian history do not mention that this aircraft have been used operationaly (while P-47 was).

There certainly is some grey area. Not everything is written down. And misidentifications occurred also.

Hans Wind's P-38 shootdown was actually a Focke Wulf 189. (recon plane).

And:
"
On the other hand mr. Hemmo Leino has a P-51 in his kill list, but mr. Leino already argued back then with the squadron intelligence guy that it definitely was a Spitfire V and nothing else. "There are no SPitfires in this area" was the answer and it was recorded as P-51. But Spit it was.
"

One recorded P-51 was a Spitfire V. But note: INTELLIGENCE *was sure* there was P-51s operating in the area. Where that information came from? Radio intelligence? Through German spies? From captured Soviet pilots?

Soviets didnt write everything down. That's a fact. That makes modern day studies hard, if we don't have access to speak with people who were there.

[-aper-]

Butch2k

That one was tested in NII-VVS.

Grendel

If you believe in russian  P-51 - it's up to you.
Still there are no information/evidences/documents from russian side that any of IAP was equiped with P-51s and there are no reports from russian pilots that they flew P-51s.

From the other hand there are lots of evidences how the pilots misrecognized for example FW-190s and La-5s inspite of square rudders etc etc...

[butch2k]

Yes i know the story of this aircraft and i also have some test data from the TSAGI.

[whgates3]

Appendix 2 of "Swastika in the Gunsight" by Soviet ace Igor Kaberov has a table taken from a 1979 Finnish book "Red Stars in the Sky" which claims to show 'the total number of Soviet wartime fighters produced in the Soviet Union or imported under the lend-lease agreement'.  It lists no P-51s (it does list 5707 x P-39, 2400 x P-63, 2397 x P-40, 195 x P-47, 2952 x Hurricane & 1331 x Spitfire).  According to this source there 17834 total lend-lease aircraft sent to the USSR, this accounts for 14982 of them.  P-51s definitely did fly to and from the USSR, though, on shuttle bombing missions, but it think that by the time the shuttle bombing missions took place the Finns were fighting on the allied side. Maybe the pictured plane is an A-36 (which would have it classified as other than a fighter and explain it's missing from the aforementioned table)

[whgates3]

all of the pictures i've found of the A-36 show it w/ 3 bladed prop.  Most of the pictures i've found of the P-51a show it w/ 4 bladed prop, but some show it w/ a 3 blade prop

[butch2k]

The aircraft is one of the British stang given to the Russian (there were ten of them), IIRC the british serial of this one is AM388 (do not quote me though).