Author Topic: I like the new approach!!  (Read 1747 times)

Offline Hortlund

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I like the new approach!!
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2002, 03:47:53 AM »
Again Nashwan, you oversimplify things. Please dont do that. If Israel is removing Palestines from whatever territory, it doesnt mean war. Just as if the government removes me from my property, that does not mean war...it just means that the government is expropriating my land.

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2002, 03:54:01 AM »
Nash
  I said in the hear and now.. and thats what I meant.  I understand all the historical unfairness and this and that.  However, right here and right now... stop the bombing FIRST.  You can't possibly expect me to support the terroist bombing avenue of approach, or condone it as a means to an end right now.  Right now the U.S. is showing high interest in brokering a Palestinian state and Isreal WILL listen.  Unfortunately the Palestinians blew the first (of many) step(S) the other day.  Well, actually it was likely Hamas who blew it, and will continue to blow it as a Jewish Isreal in any form is against thier basic doctrine.  However, refer to my earlier suggestion that the majority do something about it.  As far as where do the 4 million palestinians go?  I don't care... as far as I'm concerned that majority supports the bombing, so let them settle in Antarctica for all I care, I'm sure penguin hunting is fun and would provide plenty of chow.
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Offline Romeoman

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« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2002, 03:54:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
if the government removes me from my property, that does not mean war...it just means that the government is expropriating my land.


Of course, if the gov chooses to do that, unjustly and with no regard to my rights, just to promote the interests of another group, I might choose not to regard the government as legal, since they don't seem to view themselves bounded by the laws. And I might view myself constrained to act, in order to secure the possession of MY land, with any means available.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2002, 04:06:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).


DO YOU REALLY NEED TO SCREAM ?

Offline straffo

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« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2002, 04:08:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saintaw
Thank you Hangtime, my limited knowledge of english stops me from answering to these posts as I'm never certain as to how I'd explain my pov properly... (perhaps I should do it it french, but I have a feeling it would be lost somehow :) )

Someone please pay a beer to that guy on my behalf at the con.


Same here, you've  2 more beers to your credit Hangtime.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2002, 04:41:42 AM »
Quote
Just as if the government removes me from my property, that does not mean war...it just means that the government is expropriating my land.

It's not the government, it's a foreign government. When foreign goernments come to take away your land, it usually means war.

Quote
You can't possibly expect me to support the terroist bombing avenue of approach, or condone it as a means to an end right now.

Of course not, I'd be rather alarmed if you did support or condone terrorism.

Quote
Right now the U.S. is showing high interest in brokering a Palestinian state and Isreal WILL listen.

That's optimism I don't share. I'm pretty certain the Palestinians don't share it.

When Bush said during Defensive Shield that he expected the IDF to withdraw immediately, Israel simply ignored him.

The right wing in Israel believe in settlements. They believe the West Bank and Gaza are lands given to them by God, and they have no intention of ever giving them up.

The best deal that's ever been offered to the Palestinians was offered by Barak, and that was a joke, a state split into 4 by Israeli settlements and their security zones.

Remember, the colonies increased in times of peace and times of war. They are not historical wrongs, like the expulsion of Arabs in 1948. They are ongoing, increasing in scope and size every day.

We're not talking about people who were driven off their land 50 years ago, we're talking about people who were driven off last year, and last week. And next week, and next year.

Calling on Palestinians to stop terrorism is calling on them to surrender, and to accept whatever Israel decides to offer them.

I don't know of a country that's been colonised and ethnically cleansed that didn't fight back. Why do you expect the Palestinians to be any different?

The current terrorist attacks started because of the settlement and occupation, not the other way around. Where is the logic in expecting them to stop first?

The situation isn't ready for resolution yet. Sharon is ideologically commited to settlements, he after all was responsible for founding many of them. There will have to be a change of government in Israel before a deal becomes possible, because no matter what the situation, Israel is not going to give up the colonies at the moment.

There will probably need to be a change in Palestinian leadership as well. Israel could actually bring this about by offering and publicising a good deal. The Palestinians are sick of the war, just like the Israelis. If Israel offers a good deal, and appeals over he head of Arafat, he will have to take it or risk being replaced by someone who will.

Offline wsnpr

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« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2002, 04:44:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).


Let's see now. Did that poll have any references to after an Israeli withdraw from the Occupied Territories?
You wouldn't think that perhaps the Israeli incursions into several towns and some innocent Palestinians getting killed had anything to do with those results do you?
I'd wager given the situation being different, that of the Palestinians having their own state, with a bit of econimic prosperity, that poll result would be waaaay different.

Offline wsnpr

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« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2002, 04:54:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
Its all a really old blood feud.

Meanwhile, Im pretty peeved at all the handouts we, the US Gov't, give these countries in foreign aid.  Nope, sorry, not into buying friends.  Seems to be a long list of peoples and places we have helped along who only turn around and want to murder us at the first chance they get.  (Kuwait, etc etc)

Sometimes, financial isolationism sounds like a good idea to me

What handouts and to which arab countries? What have we ever given to the Palestinians?

Offline Romeoman

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« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2002, 05:24:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

It's not the government, it's a foreign government. When foreign goernments come to take away your land, it usually means war.


It doesn't even matter that much whose government it is. I'm certain that if the US government, though its agencies, started to ignore court rulings in order to favour a group on a systematic basis, you would have civil unrest in rather short time.

Imagine the police not enforcing evictions regarding a certain demographic group, let alone actively supporting them in their squatting. How would you feel if they moved onto your lawn? Would you still pay taxes and be an obedient citizen?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2002, 05:27:51 AM »
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In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).

The figures are wrong, BTW

79% support the intifada
68% support suicide bombings

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2002, 06:28:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

The figures are wrong, BTW

79% support the intifada
68% support suicide bombings


My source is Time.com. What's yours?

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2002, 06:29:15 AM »
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Originally posted by straffo


DO YOU REALLY NEED TO SCREAM ?


YES

;)

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2002, 06:30:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wsnpr

What handouts and to which arab countries? What have we ever given to the Palestinians?


Food.

(Ok, it might not be AK-47s, and it might not be explosives and tanks, but it SHOULD account for someting)

Offline straffo

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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2002, 06:38:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


YES

;)


speak a bit louder please ... I'm deaf since your last post :D

Offline Eagler

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Sorry ... no

"Man" is the root of ALL evil. God gave us free will. To love or hate. Heal or Kill. WE make the decision, not an angel or devil sittin on your shoulder...

Religion is but an excuse. A reason for some to show love while others to show hate. An excuse, one of many, as it is easier not to show true compassion, than to show it.

 Put the blame on the root cause - ignorance, ego, selfishness & pride <- all "Man" traits, all spoken of in all the Holy scriptures of being the "evils" we as a race must strive to overcome if we are to find peace on this earth...

Just a clue, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon as we appear to be going backwards ... don't worry, we'll all be back til we get it right.

Now ain't that a lovely thought ...
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