Author Topic: We need to fire the Senate  (Read 1997 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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We need to fire the Senate
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2002, 11:02:34 AM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Both liberal hotbeds!!


Thats an understatement now that both states are burning due to environmentalists gone astray...;)

Offline Nifty

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« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2002, 11:12:21 AM »
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Originally posted by deSelys
(remember that I only have a distorted view of the USA as 90% of my knowledge on this field comes from TV shows like Malibu Beach, Buffy....):D


and the other 10% comes from his contact with the Flying Mongrels!  So you KNOW he's got a screwed up view of the USA!  After all, we've got guys with callsigns of Puke, nopoop, and banana in our squad!  :eek:  ;)

back to seriousness... The gov't added the words "under God" to the pledge as an endorsement of religion.  That's my point, and I think that's SW's point.
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Offline K West

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« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2002, 11:22:04 AM »
 No one has ever been forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance. And the Supreme court ruled to that effect in 1942-1943.  I personally abhore the thing.  Always have since I was about 8 yrs old.  In fact it would be a violation of my Constitutional rights to force me (or my children) to say it. Heck, that's on the pledge itself.  I could careless about 'in God we trust' in that or on money.  Big whoop.

 I also have the same feelings for the playing of the National anthem in sports arenas before a game. I do not say stop playing it. I just insist that no one force me to have to particpate in the pointless ceremony.

 School is for learning, not brain washing. And sports are for enjoyment and competition, not political bandstanding.

 Westy
« Last Edit: June 27, 2002, 11:24:26 AM by K West »

Offline Charon

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« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2002, 11:25:25 AM »
Church attendance/census records show we're probably no less a religious society today than anytime in the past. The writings of the founding fathers show some distinctly different interpretations of Christianity and religion than that portrayed during the Reagan years (and during the revisionist Currier and Ives period). Our one true national religion, free market capitalism, is still going strong.

The pledge of allegiance and the powerful symbol of the flag, as we know them today, grew out of fear over the waves of late 1800s immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe. They were seen as lesser Europeans, not committed to the same pure principals as the people of good Western European stock (sound familiar?). Some were anarchists, who committed acts of terror and attempted the assassination of Teddy Roosevelt discussed in a recent thread. Tools were needed to get them with the program.

In a wave of national patriotism, our national embarrassments (a mild word in some aspects), such as the Indian Wars and slavery, were sanitized. The unnecessary (except from a colonial perspective) Spanish-American war became a heroic epic. George Washington "cut down the cherry tree" but no one noted that he could have just had one of his slaves do the deed.  History and patriotism were polished, packaged and presented in simple, feel good ask no questions terms.

The pledge was adopted in 1892. The flag, which had really been a non-symbol up to that time (and even until WW2, largely) was suddenly emphasized (in fact, we used to salute the flag in the Zieg Heil manner until WW2 prompted a change).

That is why I have a really hard time with any constitutional amendments over these symbols. I don't personally pledge allegiance to the flag, like some Nazi or Communist was required to by the power of the state. My allegiance is to the freedoms outlined in the Constitution. I had no trouble with this pledge upon entering the armed forces, and don't to this day.

The separation of church and state is part of those freedoms. A part that is perhaps hard to understand by the religious majority -- or at least inconvenient.

Some Christian sects (such as the Southern Baptist faith in my personal background) are very much focused on converting non believers to the one true faith,  and will lever any possible opportunity to convert children in the public schools. This is no secret. Ralph Reed, formerly of the Christian Coalition used to brag about how clever he was in “stealthing”  Christianity into the public schools through school board elects, etc. Now, there are evangelical Christians who see these actions as good deeds, that will ultimately save America from itself (whether we feel we need to be saved from ourselves or not). I see this as a threat to our way of life that is greater than anything a pissant like bin laden could come up with.

Further, many religious people, regardless of their aggressiveness or particular faith, see no problem with non believers generally being required to acknowledge a God, even if they would never stand for their children having to acknowledge the special divinity of another religion. But of course, nobody is "required" to say the pledge.

My stepsister is teenager in the Bible belt. Both her and my stepmom are religious, but they were not churchgoing. That is, until my sister started to get a hard time from her peers for not going to church. She was increasingly becoming an outsider in some very apparent ways, so she got with the program eventually. I don't think it was a big deal for her (being a believer in general) and it made her part of the crowd and probably increased her social life. However, for someone with perhaps deeper convictions, I really can't imagine being the only person in a High School class not to stand up and say the pledge without feeling tremendous pressure to get with the program. And, this type of "coercion by example" has no more a place in a public school than a pledge saying: "one nation without god" or "one nation under Alla (or Budda, or Hitler, or Jesus Christ)

Charon

[edit: The Senate vote seems to show the impact of coercion by example as well :)  Who wanted to be the first one to vote nay, since the reasons for voting nay wouldn't fit into a typical soundbite and would likely be lost on their constituents, many of who don't know which side of the war we fought on in WW2, for example.]
« Last Edit: June 27, 2002, 11:37:16 AM by Charon »

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2002, 12:16:10 PM »
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Originally posted by K West
No one has ever been forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance. And the Supreme court ruled to that effect in 1942-1943

 That is not true. On that occasion Supreme Court overturned previous decision that people could be/had to be compelled to plege allegiance.
 It was mandatory once, it may be so again.

 miko
« Last Edit: June 27, 2002, 12:19:22 PM by miko2d »

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2002, 12:42:38 PM »
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"GOD" itself would cover Buddha, Allah, all of them.

Now that's a very interesting problem you have there ripsnort:
According to your logic, I fear, one has to ask you if you're still comfortable with the US being one Nation under The Emperor of Japan? The King of Nepal? The King of Thailand? The Dalai Lama? Haile Selassie? David Koresh? Anyone who wants to proclaim himself a God and can get followers?
Sounds like a nightmare sovreignity/constitutional problem to me...
I guess to cover the whole gamut of religious belief it should really be "One nation under many gods, godesses, devils, demons, princes, kings, priests, maybe even myself; or maybe none at all - heck, we simply don't know for sure."
But in a nation so full of lawyers willing to go with weird fringe lawsuits, I'd play it safe and go back to the pre '54 pledge and ditch the whole god problem completely.
Otherwise, you may technically be making your country subservient to non elected monarchs and non US citizens. Giving away your sovreignity, even only symbolically, doesn't sound too patriotic to me.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2002, 01:00:54 PM by -dead- »
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Offline hawk220

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« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2002, 01:04:16 PM »
N1kPaz, you sound like such a redneck.. you would send me to a 're-education' camp because i don't believe in YOUR imaginary friend? or is it because i dissent with you? DISSENT IS AMERICAN .. i know that is a tough concept for you, you want everyone  to lockstep with your oh-so enlightend, views. YOUR type of myopic patriotism would be right at home in Germany in about 1936.

Offline Wanker

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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2002, 02:10:11 PM »
Charon said:
Quote
My stepsister is teenager in the Bible belt. Both her and my stepmom are religious, but they were not churchgoing. That is, until my sister started to get a hard time from her peers for not going to church. She was increasingly becoming an outsider in some very apparent ways, so she got with the program eventually. I don't think it was a big deal for her (being a believer in general) and it made her part of the crowd and probably increased her social life. However, for someone with perhaps deeper convictions, I really can't imagine being the only person in a High School class not to stand up and say the pledge without feeling tremendous pressure to get with the program. And, this type of "coercion by example" has no more a place in a public school than a pledge saying: "one nation without god" or "one nation under Alla (or Budda, or Hitler, or Jesus Christ)


There is a lot of truth in what you say, here. Did all of you forget how much peer pressure goes on in high schools? The whole basis of this guy's lawsuit in the first place was that even though his daughter was not required to say the pledge of allegiance, she felt ostracized because she chose not to.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2002, 02:14:21 PM »
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Originally posted by banana
Charon said:

There is a lot of truth in what you say, here. Did all of you forget how much peer pressure goes on in high schools? The whole basis of this guy's lawsuit in the first place was that even though his daughter was not required to say the pledge of allegiance, she felt ostracized because she chose not to.


So why did the court not do the proper thing and ban the Pledge  in School? Instead they just banned the pledge, and pissed off every American senator and congress person.  Most of the guys in this thread are standing alone on this issue! Wake up!

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2002, 02:17:27 PM »
Rip, if by pissed off you mean taking the majority side so they can win the next election.... then you're right.

Don't put much more than a bag of flour into the words that come out of a politicians mouth.
-SW

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2002, 02:19:30 PM »
Just the ones holding up Bushs nominees ... the same hypocrites which ran to the steps yesterday to say the pledge in front of the tv cameras
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Offline Nifty

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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2002, 02:24:58 PM »
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"Will our courts, in their zeal to abolish all religious faith from public arenas, outlaw 'God Bless America' too?" added fellow Missouri Republican Rep. Roy Blunt  "The great strength of the United States is that we are and will continue to be, despite the liberal court's decision, one nation under God."


Guess I'm not part of this one nation then.  I'm nearly positive I'm not under any God.  I definitely don't worship one.
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Offline koala

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« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2002, 02:40:16 PM »
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Please, throw us out of the Union. We don't need you.


You got my vote.  Leave, please.  I'm tired of having to pay higher energy bills because California's leadership has its head up its ass, along with the handsomehunkes who voted them in.

Good luck with those energy bills when you have to go it alone.

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2002, 02:48:15 PM »
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Originally posted by Ripsnort


So why did the court not do the proper thing and ban the Pledge  in School? Instead they just banned the pledge, and pissed off every American senator and congress person.  Most of the guys in this thread are standing alone on this issue! Wake up!


They did NOT just ban the Pledge. What they banned was the phrase "Under God" because that phrase violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment which bars the Government from setting up an official religion. Frankly I'm not surprised they allowed the addition of this phrase in 1954 as it was during the height of the Cold War and, thinking back, the Communists were always refered to as Godless.

Think about this rationally and you'll agree with the majority opinion written by Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, a Nixon appointee, BTW- "A profession that we are a nation "under God' is identical...to a profession that we are a nation 'under Jesus,' a nation 'under Vishnu,' a nation 'under Zeus,' or a nation 'under no god' because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion."

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2002, 02:50:07 PM »
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Originally posted by koala


You got my vote.  Leave, please.  I'm tired of having to pay higher energy bills because California's leadership has its head up its ass, along with the handsomehunkes who voted them in.

Good luck with those energy bills when you have to go it alone.


What energy problems? Now that Enron is gone, things seem okay.

Let's see... 2000 had no real problems. 2001 had rolling black outs and then 2002 is back with no problems.

Sounds like mismanagement and fraudulent practices caused the crisis of last year... but we knew that already.
sand