Author Topic: the magical flip( Octoflugeron) (Read 1751 times)

rabbit · « **on:** June 28, 2002, 04:33:15 PM »

i often see some folks do this magical flip thing and still retain all of their E and are still able to catch me even if i fly directly through.

here is what i see.....

going head to head im moving at about 300mph the other AC is closing at a normal rate does not even seem to be CO E i blow through to extend. the NME AC does this kick bellybutton flip over thing and is 500 off my 6. no lead turn involved! we merged H2H.

51V51. btw i always travel with a lite fuel load so it cant be that im heaver. i am at least co weight.

how in the hell did this dood retain his E and get his plane reversed and on my 6 that fast. still closing on my fast plane that i havent turned?

I see this alot with the nik the magical Prop hanger, 38 the super flip of doom, jug that can turn like a yak, 51 that turns tighter than a spit and retains its E, i have tried it over and over but i still cant get revved that fast and retain my E.

I have tried every thing that i can think i understand the beter turning planes doing this to an extent but the 51 and jugs sorta have me scratching my head.

if this magical octoflugeron flip can be performed by the average Dweeb then i am in need of a trainer to learn this wonderous mystery of ACM that i cant pick up on.

Spatula · « **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2002, 11:05:47 PM »

Rab, there must have been some sort of lead turn being employed here. It may not have been obvious to you, maybe cause of lag, or they used vert seperation rather than horizontal to pull it off - or a combo of both.

I can assure you the P51 cant out turn a spit at slow speeds, and most definetly will loose E faster due to its poor acceleration compared to the spit. At high speeds the p51 turns exceptionally well. So does the P47.

Short of implying cheating, the move you described cant have be pulled off as you thought it was. It defies physics (virtual physics at least).

As for the N1k/Hellocopter they're great at hangin on the prop. Im not sure if what i can do is correct or not, but most people underestimate the nik, cause they think its just a slow turn and burner. Fact is its a very powerfull late-war monster with 4 cannons which can turn very well too. I treat them with alot of caution.

Ghosth · « **Reply #2 on:** June 29, 2002, 09:19:57 AM »

Spatula before they "fixed" the nik this happened to me all the time. I'd be in level cruise had a big head of steam built up. I'd be sliding along 8 to 10k. See a nik coming from my 12 low. He would do exactly what rabbit described and would be on my 6 and kill me.

What rabbit doesn't see is that there IS a lead turn involved, a vertical one.

Con is inbound, see's you, sets up a shallow dive for speed. (ideally I think 2 k lower is about right.) Con starts his turm early ussually about when he'd be tough to see by a fast mover 2k above.

Guy above thinks "no way he can catch me, I'll just hold my speed & be ok.)But the Nik is doing a lead turn onto his 6 "From below". The nik does lose E, but not a lot. Also if he setup right he has plenty to play with. Besides, all he needs is a shot in the d300 to 800 range.

This one used to bug the heck out of me until I tried it myself. It can be incredibly deceptive if your a good pilot and watch the timeing.

Try it yourself in TA or dueling arena
The key is the vertical seperation makeing it possible for him to lead turn onto your 6 for shot.

rabbit · « **Reply #3 on:** June 29, 2002, 11:50:39 AM »

I gotta learn this!!!!

the one that really frustrates me is the co alt/E merge where the nme will make this mystical reverse on me and not seem to lose E. even when i havent moved to counter it.

or where i am co e/alt with another 51 and we are in a knife fight and the other stang can keep his E and still get around on me. i am starting to get the hang of this one but, it would like to get into the TA and practice this find out where im going wrong.

i might even be employing this wonderful manuver from time to time and not realize it. so maybe i need to just perfect it.

i really need to get in shape with angles and gunnery. one more thing to add is i didnt realize that a frame rate change would throw ones gunnery off. ( weird!)

i would like to get with a trainer and learn this and work on it until i can pull this magical trick out of my hat and suprize folks the way they suprize me.

Maybe if i could get a few films to study i could see how it is done.

we really need to get an AH film library where we can just upload films for others to study. back in the old days i could get most of my questions ansered by just downloading a few films.
maybe we could get HT to donate a bit of ftp space for this? so we can make training films accessable to all and put a training link right where even the new guys can find it.

i have also been thinking about hanging in the TA for an few hours a week so i can help out new pilots with less experiance then myself. ( i can show them how to get clubbed like a real baby seal )

thanks Spatula and Ghosth

Tac · « **Reply #4 on:** June 29, 2002, 12:25:18 PM »

Here's what I think is happening to you:

You are flying straight at 300mph to merge with target.

Target is flying at you in a shallow dive gaining a LOT of E while you 2 close. Target will end up being at 420'ish when you 2 merge.

Target starts the merge turn before you do, pulling hard. Now, because he has higher E than you do, doing the hard turn may bleed off some of his speed, but not all of it. Target may end up at 350mph after his turn, on your 6 and closing fast. Especially if target closes on you while in a shallow dive (the best merge turns are not done flat but gaining a little alt).

rabbit · « **Reply #5 on:** June 29, 2002, 12:38:56 PM »

Ahhhh!.

Could be that in some cases.

So...the NME is closing with more speed. and not bleeding off as much i think making the lead turn.

so is it better to turn into the nme then to just try to blow through? i know that im meat if i turn away. i give him my 6 right from the get go.

but, if i pull into him i am begging for the head on. yeah i think im going to have to see film from the nme perspective to understand it.

poopster · « **Reply #6 on:** June 29, 2002, 01:38:56 PM »

It's a lead turn, bread n butter. Just be aware of it.

Low fast La7's have a habit of trying it, they lose so little E on a hard pull. I'm not talkin co-alt, the con comes in lower but has smash. Sort of a "sleeper"

Expect it. As soon as you see them tryin it, a gentle spiral turn in the same direction as they are turning and increase the climb angle and tighten the turn. They start to bleed. They have to pull harder.

They keep "trying" to get to you, hang on the prop and fall. If they don't bite all the way, you still have the altitude and they are now slower. La7's and Nikies tend to think "invincable" and it plays into your hand.

Split back down and they realize there "sneak" attack put them in real hot water.

Roscoroo · « **Reply #7 on:** June 29, 2002, 03:21:29 PM »

your opponent is defentally getting a lead turn on you ...stop trying to aim a headon shot and practice an evasive dip below or off to one side of him and start your turn early .( 400-700 away)
Ive found this to work fairly well for getting the adv at the first merge. .. If you mess up... extend away 2.4 + away and try to maintain your E there are many variations to this and it takes a long time against many different opponents to learn them .
I think i died 5 million times befor i learned this. along with a slow pc .. i used to be ..Bait LOL

the best training i can tell you for this is to practice with some one and "FILM your FIGHT " swap films with them and watch for your self . use the trail option .this is how i learned the timing needed in this game to win .

Tac · « **Reply #8 on:** June 29, 2002, 04:30:54 PM »

countering that lead turn is simple. you turn in the opposite direction. he turned left to turn into you, you turn right. IF hes faster and your slower he will overshoot into your gunsights.

Of course, the hard part is knowing if hes faster than you

SKurj · « **Reply #9 on:** June 29, 2002, 05:02:38 PM »

if badguy fast, turn to his nose
if badguy slow turn to his tail

SKurj

Kweassa · « **Reply #10 on:** June 29, 2002, 07:28:05 PM »

I believe this is what you have in mind, rabbit:

Kweassa · « **Reply #11 on:** June 29, 2002, 07:28:49 PM »

rabbit · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2002, 04:33:53 AM »

Depending on the situation i will choose to either extend or dive out. (defensive) and this is not a very good way to enter any fight.

staying agressive in most cases will win the fight. unless you are over agressive. in most cases when you see this merge the pilot is prolly a pretty good stick. if ya choose to stay it becomes a crap shoot. so i pretty much have i good understanding of the concept. i just need to work a few things and learn what works for me.

thanks for the info all this is becomming a pretty informative thread.

gofaster · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2002, 08:51:03 AM »

I always wondered how Niki's pulled that off...P-38s, too. Now I know!

Gryffin · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2002, 08:19:18 PM »

Kweassa, I love these tactics pics you have been posting. Do you have a website with the complete set somewhere?