Scoop on Combat Trim

[easymo]

 Im guessing that this can be turned off (padlock view, and easymode). I should get some better players to shoot at in H2H  

 I have to say. I find it funny that people bring up ezmode take offs, which have very little impact on the game. Yet have never said a word about the ezmode guns.

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-03-2000).]

[StSanta]

Hey Andy  

The meaning of good and bad in it is that in the G10, my workload is much higher than in the A8 due to constant trimming. Elevator and aileron out of trim can be dealt with by proper stick input (but, I must say that on more than a few occasions have I missed a shot as I ease up on the stick in a firing solution), but rudder slip is especially treacherous. Granted, you can use rudder pedals to fix it, but until you notice it, you will have lost plenty of speed in a slip.

In the A8, I very rarely touch any trim buttons.

So, this is what I mean with good and bad. The G10 (pilot) gets a boost because workload is reduced and no irritating loss of speed due to slipping, and the A8 pilot loses one of his advantages since all planes will have superb trim characteristics with CT.

I'll wait with my judgement until it is implemented, but it doesn't look that bad. I'll fly without it anyhow.

As flakbait has indicated, there'll be some drawbacks on using it; you might not be able to push the envelope so far.

But, I can understand Hangtime's point too; I've also invested lots of time into making trim second nature and I believe good trim handling can win you some e.

Also looked at how Hristo use autopilot to quickly trim his plane during a fight. Either way works if you have trained it, and this training might *or might not* have been wasted, depending on whether CT will disallow those flipping throwing off aim movements the great pilots like citabria, hblair etc have.

------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-03-2000).]

[Renfield]

I wasn't to keen on auto (er, combat) trim when I heard about it either. Real planes would swerve and roll over from torque and the trim inputs were pretty strong to be able to handle the plane at different speeds. I like the FM as it is now. It's the only sim I've seen that hasn't dumbed down the FM to the point of Space Invaders.

I also understand that AH is a business and that too "hard" of a flight model discourages newbies. My guess is they've been looking at the number of 2-week trials vs. subscriptions and finding a discrepancy. This is only a guess. So if it helps HTC to get or retain more players, we have to see it from their perspective.

On the other hand, I was pretty pissed when I found out that EZ mode had been available in the WB MA and that I had been flying against pilots who had a significant advantage. WB's EZ mode extended performance though - lowered stall speeds, improved cornering, etc. If CT is strictly trim, then it won't be as bad, but it still is a dumbing down of the FM IMHO.

If a guy on combat trim can out turn, out zoom, or out anything a guy in an identical plane with CT turned off, then I'm out right then and there.

I would hope that a control gets added where combat trim becomes unavailable once a pilot gets a certain rank or number of kills.

[Revvin]

Erm if I am reading this right then combat trim will be a crutch that can be turned on and off as a menu option? also that its effects will not give combat trim users (ie new players) not give any performance advantage over users with combat trim off? if anything it will allow new players (who I have seen many in various forums and online) saying how AH's FM is hard to learn and lets face it not all players have come from other sims like many of us and have invested in a HOTAS system over the years so why not cut them some slack, this is not EZ mode in the same respect as Warbirds Ezmode just a helper for those new players, if they choose to turn it off later its up to them but if they don't the way I read it is that they will be penalised with less performance than those with combat trim switched off.

VISCONTI> You may be interested to hear that I asked HT (yesterday I think it was) about early war planes, it was a question I asked for the SimHQ question time that was run a few months back..I asked then if more early war stuff would be worked on and he answered in the affirmative then and he repeated that affirmation last night online when I asked if earlywar planes would be introduced in the next few versions as I'm sure I am not the only one fed up with constant requests for the latest uber planes to be added. I also sometimes despair to think that some of these requests for obscure uber planes are made just to be 'different' when I would like to see more mainstream early war planes duking it out in the MA such as the 109E or Spit Ia or early P51's and so forth.

[easymo]

 "if they choose to turn it off later". O come on now. This is a pandora,s box. once its open, thats it.

 People complain about icons. Well, right now you can turn them off. How many will claim they do this, when eveybody else has them on.

 I have one suggestion. In WB I could turn fight a spit with an A8, if he were in FR and I was in ezmode. I did this with throttel control and mostly flaps.

 If CT bears any resemblance to EZ mode. They should set it so the flaps dont work if CT is on.

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-03-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Tac:


I do not have HOTAS and it is EXTREMELY hard, bordering on impossible to control the plane after a 10k dive when following a con, then leveling at the deck and watching the other guy do evasives... and my plane just CANT do a freaking thing because the trim is WAY off. Most of the times it will just roll over by itself and auger me or make me break off from the fight.

Then use autotrim in angle. Been there, done that. And I dont believe that you havent done it too. You seem to like the combat trim ,then say it. But dont support it with these arguments because they are nothing.

Autotrims are EZmode enough,auto engine management is Ezmode enough. Autotakeoff is EZmode enough...Those EZ things are MORE than all of us need.

Aces High was intended to be the hardest ,most realistic  simulator in the market-that means that you WANT to do it close to the real thing. But now we see autotrim implemented...and one wonders what will be next.

"combat-damned-it-trim" will turn Aces High to a nintendo game.
And I dont pay 30$/month for a nintendo game.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-03-2000).]

[Revvin]

Easymo if you bothered to read my post fully you'd see that if they don't turn it off the way I read combat-trim's inclusion is that they will be penalised with less performance. I don't know why everyone is getting so bent outta shape with so little facts, lets wait and see how HTC describes combat-trim and how it will be implemented before we start spitting our dummies out and throwing teddy out of the pram. I would also consider my future in AH as I think alot will if combat-trim is implemented in the same bad way the WB EZmode was.

[Maverick]

Hi all,

I find myself shaking my head over this issue. The mod hasn't even come out yet to try. In other words, you guys are getting worked up over SPECULATION. You are speculating that this will make the planes fly differently than they do now. You are speculating that it will turn raw dweebs into superkillers able to fight on equal terms with the vets...... Wait a minute here... Could this possibly be the real issue??? Not that the CT will make this more of a game, but will in fact lower the kill ratios of those who have developed the ability to make large kill strings??? Could this be equivalent to protecting ones "turf" so that they maintain a spot on the top of the food chain??? I am beginning to think it might just be that.

I have seen complaints ranging from auto takeoffs, laser guns, overmodeled this and  undermodeled that. The "lack" of or "over emphasis" of realism. The "neon billboards" and the range listing on screen. Folks, this IS a game. It ain't real life. There are limitation on what computers can and cannot model and simulate. You do NOT have depth perception to help determine range. You do not have the other factors such as "playing one time" and then dying to never play again. You are given choices of what plane to fly and what you would do once you "enlisted". If you want REAL realism then play like it is real. Once you die you can never play again. You join a country and take the plane you are ordered to take. You fly the missions you are ordered to fly. You do not do things or fly on your own. If you are ordered to go on a one way flight you do it. If you play like this, then you can say you are doing a realistic simulation.

Personally, I do not think "early WW2" planes will make a successful part of this game. Unless there are seperate arena's for each year in WW2. Look at what is being flown now. How many of the Spit V's do you see in MA? How many Zero's outside of last ditch base D are in the MA? These ARE early WW2 planes but the players using late model 109's, P38,s P51's, FW190's and even Mid WW2 P47's are the rule here. Even the B17 is later WW2 era with a chin turret.

The point is, everyone playing wants the "edge" in the game here. They take the "best" plane they can to give themselves as many advantages as possible. Whether it is the heaviest guns, fastest speed, best turn or highest altitude, it is all "demanded" by the players of this game.

If you don't get what you want then you become petulant and threaten to leave. HTC must be either tearing their "collective" hair out trying to please everyone or laughing histerically. This is an impossible task. Especially when the "rumors" of what the new development will "do" to the game.

People, just play the game. If you don't like something about it and it can be disabled then do so and be done with it. If you are concerned that the "playing field" is being leveled, learn how to make it unlevel again. Adapt to the changes and change your strategy, tactics or manner of flying. I would be willing to bet that any "old heads" flying the game wil be able to figure a way around the new "tweaks" in short order. If you can't and you end up dying more, so what. We ALL die in this game. Why should you be immune from it?

If HTC cannot provide for a certain amount of "churn", this game will go away. Their livelyhood depends on attracting and keeping some new payers as time goes on. If all the newbies see there is no way to be competitive in the arena they will simply leave and no new business will arrive to maintain the company. If you decide the game isn't for you then someone will come along to take your place. If this game isn't "realistic" enough for you, what is your alternative? Perhaps there is another one out there just for you.

Rant off!
Mav

[Andy Bush]

Mav

Good post. I think you have the right idea.

I too would like to see separate arenas for specific classes of aircraft. I imagine HTC would like to give us this also...but it may be too pricey.

Andy

[RAM]

Mav, for me is very simple. I want a hardcore flight simulator. I understand that things like icons MUST exist, that EZgunnery in bombers is done for playability (that I share that view is other thing, tho), that you cant expect all modelled because computers ARE limited.

BUT...here we arent talking about that, here we talk about autotrim in combat, I.E. the plane will be a stable platform while you have it connected. You know what does that mean? means EZ mode. ANd computer is not an issue here, the trim is well modelled as it is now.

I dont share to make this thing available for newbies. Trim is an important thing in any plane ,and to learn to trim properly the plane is not that difficult (in fact is quite easy). A newbie will learn to fly with the damned thing on and simply wont turn it off in his life. Because when he turns it off he will find that his stable 109G10 is not any more a "STABLE" plane.

So if you put a combat trim here, what are you doing is to erase a BIG part of the challenge of Air to Air combat. The planes will do perfect turns with the pilot doing nothing to make it possible. With the new FM (planes able to turn MUCH better), this will be EAW. With a better FM, maybe, and with people online and arenas. But EAW,still.

And I wont buy a EAW each month.

You say that some eople are worried about their "part of the turf". No,I dont think so. If that is what is happening, then those guys have a simple solution, put the trim mode on, and all OK, they will still be on the high part of the "food chain" as you say. So you are putting the thing worse. It is clear that not only newbies will use this thing.

 I love the challenge of air combat, and I wont put this thing on. But to know that the guy in front of me me has it and so has a marked advantage that I dont have,is simply something I wont stand.

Make it available on a EZarena or in the Training Arena, or put it nowhere. Mixed arenas are not for me. Autotrim is an EZ feature, belonging to EZarenas. If you put it on Main I'll do my packets and bags and will leave from Aces High.

And I guess I wont be the only one to do it.

I am DEEPLY concerned with this thing. We all saw what happened in Wb and EZ modes. It turned out that 60% people was flying with it on. Here will happen THE SAME. autotrim in combat will be for me a cheat mode. And I dont fly against cheaters. Period.

Ah, other thing...this is the first SERIOUS step towards EZmode. Not hard to see that it is very possible the first of a lot of steps in that direction.

My fears are coming true. And I stick with my word. I will give EZtrim a chance, if it is connectable/disconectable during flight, or if it gives a marked advantage over the thing off, then I am done in Aces High until a relaxed realism arena is created and there is no mixed realism settings in Main Arena.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-03-2000).]

[Revvin]

RAM> I think getting all hysterical about this combat-trim is a bit premature, hell even the trolls from AGW hav'nt picked up on it yet   let HTC explain combat-trim as he did with the padlock and hold our judgement till then, I too would seriously have to reconsider my subscription to AH if some form of EZmode was introduced that gave users an unfair advantage in the MA but as yet we have no proof that this is the case only rumour and speculation.

[Hangtime]

Whoops...

It's absoulutly correct that this item has no been implemented yet.. and hence projections on impact in arena play is speculation at best...

.... however, speculation in a debate enviornment regarding a proposed feature is not detrimental to development.. I hope.

In any case, allow me to speculate that the biggest impact this will have is on gunnery. Think about it. Scary, hunh?

Next area of concern for me is trim at high speed, and fast transitions from the high speed turn and gunnery enviornment to a low speed turn and gunnery enviornment.

Then we have to consider the impact 'constant trim' will have on low speed departure charateristics.. and also it's impact on the high speed stall.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm... obviously; these are serious considerations, or am I misinterpeting the ramifications of a constant trim characteristic inclusive in the FM?

And certainly, the developers are aware of what in hell it is they intend.. I trust 'em. They seem to have done a good job so far... right?

Dunno.. but I do know that whatever it is, I'll keep an open mind.  

Confused, but open.

Hang

[SOB]

I don't like the idea of combat trim the way I see it working in my head.  However, since I don't know how it'll work, and I haven't seen it working, I won't bother squeaking or speculating about what it may or may not do.  Wait until it's here...when you actually see it, you'll truely know whether you like it or not.

[airspro]

   Paddock , Combat Trim , lets see what else did I want when I first came ?? Oh ya , less flight time between fields . Just u wait that will be next IMO .

Sure AH guys light up BIG Cuban cigars with 100 dollar bills but I do think that the player base is not getting all that much bigger  

Lets see more players = more money .

They just had a private placement of money into stock and then most of this stuff comes along .

Food for thought .

spro out

[Sharky]

Hi all,

Ok explain this to me like I'm a 4 year old.

Why is it important that a guy with next to no experiance in flight sims has to be able to compete on equal ground with someone who has been flying them for year???????

I've been flying sims for close to five years and I have become a fairly good stick.  I'll put my dogfighting skills up against anyone.  I may not win but the other guy will know he earned his kill.  Now why is it a guy who doesn't have the first clue about energy vs angle is supposed to be able to fight me on equal terms??????

I spent a lot of time learning my skills why doesn't he have to?  Why does he just get to push a button and be able to fly as well as I do???  

Is this a case of money?  Does HTC need an easier FM to attract new customers?  IF so then fine.  It's their busness and they know what they need to survive and I won't fault anyone for trying to do what they need to do to make a living (provided it's legal)

Now you may say that I don't have to use it.  Thats true, but when I enter a fight I want to know that the pilot I'm facing is working against the same problems I am and is not having a big part of his workload done for him.

Im afraid that the day of good flightsims is dead.  There are just not enough of us that want to do it the hard way to make it economically viable.  The future of flightsims is FA2 im afraid  

Well I'll wait and see but I have a bad feeling about this.

Sharky