Scoop on Combat Trim

[StSanta]

Think it was yesterday when HT was in arena, and he gave us a little scoop on upcoming v1.04.
Please; constructive thoughts/praise/criticism on the following *concept* only  

They're gonna implement something called Combat Trim, which basically is engaged when other forms of autopilot is not. This automatically trims the plane and thusly reduces the workload of the pilot.

One will be able to turn it off totally, or it'll be disabled if trim input is inserted, as long as it is added.

My thoughts on it, seen from a LW perspective:

In the G10, it will benefit the pilot greatly, since the G10 has the worst trim characteristics in the sim. On the other hand, because of poor elevator authority, I sometimes use trim back to squeeze a few extra seconds off a pullup or turn. But overall, it'll help the G10 pilot.

For an A8/A5 pilot, it's not good news. One of the strengths of the A8 is its incredible stability in terms of trim. This advantage would effectively be negated by the introduction of Combat Trim, which is a bit unfair. It'd be akin to lowering the space between gunsight and cowl in an F4U, making snapshots more difficult.

Regardless of this, I think that it won't make much of a difference to the experienced pilot one way or another. It will help newbies a lot though, and given that one has the option of turning it off, an introduction might be annoying to some of us, but probably beneficial in the long run - relatively minor "modification"/"help" will result in many more newbies staying.

HT explicitly stated that we are not talking about an EZ Mode fm, and his word is good enough for me.

So the benefits/drawbacks are somewhat obvious; planes with bad trim characteristics get a boost, planes with good ones sees a reduction of advantage (small but still) against aforementioned aircraft.

Heh, changed fm, no icons when enemy below nose, new Lancaster and German bomber. Methinks 1.04 will renew this game quite much  



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Yep, I was there when HT dropped the bomb.  

And before I make any hasty conclusions, I'd like to try the CT myself.  But I believe you've assumed correctly, Santa.

Camo

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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

[Andy Bush]

Where are the 'realism' folks when we need them??!!

Or is it that 'realism' is only an issue when it suits their purposes...whatever that may be?

If there is a need for a cheat to remove the effects of an out of trim setting, why model trim in the first place?

And more importantly, why continue this misconception that trim somehow improves turn performance?

Andy  

[popeye]

Well, I guess it will be good for the Bottom Line.  Managing trim is probably the biggest obstacle to new players.

OTOH, since managing trim is a part of RL flight, I always considered it a skill, rather than a "necessary evil", something that gives an edge to the player who learns to do it well.  I tend to agree with Andy that this is a step away from realism.

Have to withold judgement until we have a chance to try it.

popeye

[StSanta]

Andy, not saying trim helps turn performance...

But when you're fast in g10, controls lock up. You only have very little elevator authority. By using trim keys, I can control my plane and turn "more".

Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

About the trim, think I've said it already. I hated trim when I first got here, but am used to it now. I still think I have a valid (if minor) point regarding negating the difference in trim characteristics (to my advantage in g10, and disadvantage in a8).

As far as I see it, it's a quite minor change, and will not have much of an impact on seasoned fliers. It might detract from "realism" a little bit, but I believe more newbies will stay and that the sacrifice is quite small compared to the benefits.

Still, when two seasoned good pilots meet, one in say a8 and one in g10, the a8 will have lost an edge, unless the g10 pilots is flying with it on.

Too early to speculate, but still I am.   .

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-03-2000).]

[Westy]

My .02 (always have to toss it in it seems).

I found trim to be a minor hurtle coming from a "game" that did not even model torque for starters. I've always felt that trim itself was a good add-on for realisim but that in WB's and even here in AH it was a bit "unreal" in that I could literally fly the plane with just trim. I hate to use the word "gimmick" but trim has always felt like a feature used to make the sim harder to a certain extent for the sake of making adding to the learning curve. Not entirely a bad thing mind you. But not that it made it more "real."  I say not real due for the most part because we have trim, or even certain trim tabs, on aircraft that did not have them or if they did they were not adjustable in flight.
 So after almost a year I've gotten so used to trim that I manage it without much conscious thought. I usually think about it whane I'm 50 feet off the ground and I ry and turn and pancake.  

 I'm glad trim is modelled here. I wish it was a bit more specific for each aircraqft based on it's RL use.  As for adding combat trim. Like 'padlock' I'lll with hold any negative, or positive, comment till I've seen it for a week or so.  If it brings more folks to the Aces High and doesn't compromise what I feel is the solid integrity of AH then I'm all for it.  
 We lived through easy takeoff, we can live thru combat trim - I think  

  -Westy
 

[Andy Bush]

Santa

Roger that!!

But what is the meaning of 'good-bad' in this?

>>So the benefits/drawbacks are somewhat obvious; planes with bad trim characteristics get a boost, planes with good ones sees a reduction of advantage (small but still) against aforementioned aircraft.<<

Andy

[RAM]

Fly-wy-wire autotrim?.

I will give it a chance, but for me it is NOT realistic, and it is a EZ feature.

And you all know what did I promise if EZ things are included in Aces High.

Maybe this is my last version of Aces High.  

[Sharky]

Hi all,

Sorry but I can't see how this is going to do anything but hurt AH.  I get this feeling that AH is slowly creeping toward a FA/MSCFS kinda sim.

First we get the auto takeoff feature, then the padlock thing comes up, now this.  I get killed alot in the arena and thats Ok, as long as I know I was beaten by pilot skill not some computer aid.  If this Combat trim is Ok then what is next? Otto? Or how about auto landing and maybe an automatic merge control because that's where most guys lose the fight anyway.

I see ideas like this as a step backwards not as progress.  However I also know that fewer and fewer people are willing to take the time to learn to fly a really good flight sim and so the emphisis is on making it easier as opposed to more realistic.  Unforunatly that is just the economics of the game  

Sharky

[flakbait]

Yeesh RAM, calm down will ya. This Combat Trim will have a button, like no tracers or auto-take off. You can turn it on, or do what I'm gonna do; leave it O-F-F. Newbies will have an actual chance in a dogfight here with this. What it doesn't give them is speed, altitude, or the ability to throw their plane into a falling leaf stall. I've gotten around guys [Linx] with several tricks you can't pull with an auto-trim feature.

Pull the nose up, wait until you're vertical, then belt the nose over hard. Auto-trim would cancel out the instability, making an easy shot for the guy riding up your 6. I got him once with a falling leaf stall. You can't do that with auto-trim, since it will make your plane fly a lot more stable.

Instability is where you get some great maneuvers. Just letting the aircraft wobble all over can, and will, throw off the accuracy of the guy firing at you. This will make it easier for new guys, but will give people that've been here since BETA [you, me,  and others] some easy targets.

No wobbling, no errant moves, just smooth flying and fighting. Perfect targets since there's no errant jerks in the trim. If he kicks his nose over the wings won't wobble like normal. So it looks like a perfect nose-over to you and everyone else. A nice stable target, flown by a new guy.

RAM, I'm with you on one point. If Easy Mode comes to Aces High it belongs in another arena, offline, or not at all.


Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School

[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 09-03-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by flakbait:
Yeesh RAM, calm down will ya. This Combat Trim will have a button, like no tracers or auto-take off. You can turn it on, or do what I'm gonna do; leave it O-F-F

Autotakeoff can be turned off if some stick input happens.

I am guessing here ,but this "combat" autotrim...can it be engaged and disengaged on flight or on land only?...

If it is the first, then I stay in my word. it is EZ and it means my exit from AH  

If it is not, then I will give it a try offline and see what happens.

Still I dont like it. Autotakeoff doesnt kill people. Autotrims will do. Fw190s are stable aircraft that benefit from good stability with few trim input.

I dont understand why a G10 can be as stable as a 190 if the pilot doesnt make it possible.

Sorry but I am all against the incorporation of this feature. We'll see, but my fears are becoming slowly true  

[VISCONTI]

WW2Online open bete in october "unofficial"

Who care on auto trim, MG models, P-47 that turn like a spit, HO, F4U-C cannons, and many more...????

AH is not in develepment IMO, 1 year and only 2 bombers, only late war planes, no one can tell us if early war plane will be introduced in a short time, i will cancel my account at the end of this month, who know maybe i can come back in 3 years and probably i can find a more complete game whit all these bugs fixed and a planeset scenarios friendly but now it's not time to waste money.

[AKDejaVu]

Slightly off-topic... but didn't some LW aircraft have some form of auto trim?  I was watching a program once that discussed restoration of a 190(?)... they mentioned that the only thing they couldn't restore was the "computer" for the trim.  Nobody really knew how it worked.  They simply bypassed it and did it manually.

I really wish I'd paid more attention to that show.

AKDejaVu

[Tac]

Personally, I like this combat trim thing.

I do not have HOTAS and it is EXTREMELY hard, bordering on impossible to control the plane after a 10k dive when following a con, then leveling at the deck and watching the other guy do evasives... and my plane just CANT do a freaking thing because the trim is WAY off. Most of the times it will just roll over by itself and auger me or make me break off from the fight.

"Realism" here is really hard to put in, as real pilots had a lot of things with which to counter these problems... HOTAS pilots have a good equivalent of it too. But us 4 button/hat stick - keyboard players just dont have the chance.

I would say HTC to allow a toggle for that. If HOTAS players WANT to have their trim like it is now, they can keep it that way. Non-Hotas can turn on that combat trim thing. It will give everyone a FAIR chance in the skies.

[Hangtime]

Hmmmmmmmm..

I'm against the addition of auto-any-damn- thing.

Anybody here play poker?? Put everybody in a Dick Nixon mask and deal a hand of 5 card draw. You can still play, but what makes LIVE poker great and the virtual kind dry and boring is the NUANCES that accompany play with a skilled adversary.

IMHO, putting the described and proposed auto trim into a combat A/C is like making everybody look, act, dress, think and talk alike. Welcome to Mao's Fighter World.

Instead of it being a value-added feature, I'd consider it being an insult to those that have invested the time and effort into learning how to fly combat A/C to and beyond it's limits in a do-or-die enviornment.

Of course, my initial reaction is very negative; and thats unfair to the developer. Surely, we oughta give it a try before roundly condemming it.

Of course, Marx found it unfair to have his ideas jumped on prior to acceptance.... I wonder what woulda happened if we all were forced to 'give it a try'.

I suspect that if this feature appears, it's here to stay. The sim deserves FM refinement, not novice crutch equalisers.

Hang