Why they dont stay...

[Westy]

...as well as the Rags, Zazen and the Ole(illiterate)Onz types !!!!  

 On another, more serious note; I think those who feel that "WWII Online" will be the hard core realism mecca are really] setting themselves for a major fall. Locically, just think about it. The numebrs needed to make that place a persistant world will require that the sim not be geared tyowards the 20% who are hard core junkies. I predict that soon after WWII Online goes into open beta that there will be added more options to automate vehicle/aircraft functions than Aces High does (and will have).  Otherwise it'll remain a 100-200 player online at any one momnet type of game. They'll never win over the AW, FA-II, WBN's "ACA" or other "easy mode" games. And numbers are what WWII Online will desperately need.  Even if most players dumped AH and WB's for the skies of WWII Online there aren't nearly enough numbers (heck add in AW's and FA-II miniscule "full realism" numbers to the equation) there to man the skies on a steady basis at all.

  -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 09-07-2000).]

[Vila]

Stig,

Just to clarify, I'm NOT suggesting an EZ mode arena.  I'm suggesting a NEWBIE arena, where only new accounts can fly. It would have all the same Flight Models, etc of the main.  It would be a place where new guys could go to get used to flying around and shooting at stuff, while not being easy meat for the hot-shots in the main.

My feeling is that the expereince level of the dedicated online simmers is so high, that only the most ardent newbies have the patience to stick out the baby seal clubbings until they can hold their own.

We need a way to get these folks into hard-core simming, WITHOUT comprimising the quality of the sim.  One way to do it is let them build a little experience WITHOUT getting whacked as soon as they enter a fight.  

Some low-lifes might create a new account just to hunt in the Newbie Arena, but that would be about the most pathetic thing anyone could do  .

Vila

[Stiglr]

Gotcha, vila. That's a good idea, and precisely where Warbirds f***ed up.

First, they created the EZ Mode with the misguided notion that making it easier to fly initially would NOT introduce a lot of bad habits and in fact make it *harder* to fly Full Realism Mode.

Then, they subsidized it, lowballing their own "regular" price and created the ACA arena. No incentive to go anywhere else. No time limit. No "path" upward to Real Mode. Now they've got a foul-smelling subclass of Quakebirders taking up server space (sometimes more of them than are in the other full boat arenas) at a measly $9.95 a month.

THEN, the real backbreaker, they allowed EZ Mode to be flown mixed with Real Mode in the Main Arena!!!! Once that cat was let out of the bag, the entire face of the "Top Pilots" list changed, as many "hot sticks" were exposed for the EZ Mode Dweebs they are. But, in a blow to the sim, when EZ Mode was outlawed in the Main, a whole bunch just disappeared into the ACA, with their bad habits and dweebish ways, taking a lot of $2/hr revenue with them.

Pyro, if you're listening, be careful with features that dumb down your sim to "make it easy" for Quakebirders to enter and drag things down to their level.

[JimBear]

You want to look how far quakebirders can drag a game down? look to another $9.95 all you can eat one, that now has runway drag races and parachute landing contests in place of attempted historical events. Where the highest art form is the air-air rocket kill or chute ram       ::sigh::

[Biff]

Wonder which one that is.  

[Minotaur]

Stiglr;

Be careful.  Remember that it is all relative.  The boundaries of each game must be learned and pushed.  EZ-Mode, AirQuake and Hardcore can each be relative, but only onto themselves and for each individual player.

Consider playing socker, but with different size playing fields, larger nets and less restrictive rules etc...  No matter what field you play on, the game is the same to each respective player at that level.  Each player learns the finasse of the game and has pride in their ability.

The game only changes in your perspective if you move to the next harder playing field.  Your point of reference has changed, but the actual game has not.  

Before you moved to that harder playing field, were you only a "QuakeSocker Player"?

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"hehehe...I like this thread squealing Bastids!"
SOB

[LJKkratz]

Hmmm...

I definitely think that this game is worth more than 10 bucks... obviously - I'm paying 30 for it...

However... Our squadron just came over from FA.  If it were not for the price of AH, every single member of my squadron would have jumped at it, and we would have brought a lot of friends from other FA squadrons with us.

Perhaps 15 or 20 would be a more reasonable amount?  Keep out the casuals, but make the game accessible for some of the best flyers around who just might not have that kind of money to spend every month.

just my 2c... or is it 2995c?

------------------
--------
LJK Kratzer
Geschwader Kommodore, LuftJägerKorps

www.luftjagerkorps.com

[K-KEN]

Jeez....
All this talk about nothing.  Let's really look at it-not from MY SIM AW3.....(I have WB on the HD, but never flew it on-line)  Did Closed Beta Testing for AW3, before the release.  Major Erection-back then.  WOW 3D.

The topic and point of this is purely math and stats.  Let's have an example.

             SAMPLE ONLY

Payroll and Taxes.  (assuming HTC pays their employees, and the taxes, and benefits)

6 People @ $40,000.00 per year each.  Your area may be higher or lower...just a figure.
6 x $40,000.00 = $240,000.00 per year.
Approx 14% for Employer contributions....Soc Security (7%), Unemployment Taxes (2-3%), Workmans Comp....(3 to 10%) etc.,
$240,000 x 14% = $33,600.
Payroll/People Costs:  $273,600.00

Rent  Lets make it easy.  
$1,500.00 mo. x 12 months = $18,000.00

Telephone(s)  Business lines are prolly $50.00 a month each.  Lets say 3 lines and a dedicated fax.
4 x $50.00 = $200.00
$200.00 x 12 months = $2,400.00

Internet Connections T1
A single T1 Equipment and Installation =$3,000.00
Then the monthly cost is approx $3,000.00 (this figure from my MCSE Net Essentials book)  May be higher or lower.
12 x 3,000.00 = $36,000 + install and Equip $3,000.00
$36,000.00 + 3,000.00 = $39,000.00
(does not include any service contract)

MISC.
Insurance on the business and contents.   ?
lets say $10,000 a year.

Servers ?
Routers ?
Desktops ?
Laptops ?
Software ?
Cabling ?
Go ahead and put any number where a ? mark appears.  

I will add my total, for the figures I entered, for an annual budget.

TOTAL not including MISC.,
$343,000.00.
Divide $343,000.00 by $30.00 =
11,433 NEEDED paying customers.

So how many more folks do we need to make payroll and expenses this month. ??  

I have owned and operated my own business, and nothing is free!  Pay the $30.00 and if you can't, don't.  Don't berate the folks who are trying to make a go of it, and don't ask them to give away the business.  The only thing we will be left with is a memory.
Nuff Said.

K-KEN

 http://www.cutthroats.com/


         


 http://www.neo-meme.com/coyote.html#COYOTE
Hi my name is Ken, I have a drinking problem !!!      


[This message has been edited by K-KEN (edited 09-07-2000).]

[kidcol]

getting back to the question of how to get new players into the game & make them feel welcome, instead of "Hi, BOOM, you're dead. Please try again."

Tuff to say, as I'm sure HT would agree. AH has a very difficult learning curve.

When I first tried flyin online, I, like most of you probably, skipped right past whatever training arena (or equivalent). I wanted to play NOW. Not spend hours toolin around some school, that tried to teach me, in some exceedingly boring manner, how to take off, land, fire my guns, etc. The only prob. with this is that it is absolutely neccessary with advanced flight sim/games like AH and, yes, WB. Mandatory training periods won't work & I don't think altered flight models are a good idea either. It's too easy to get used to an EZ model & want to stay there, therefore getting fed up with the real flight model & not wanting to play anymore.

One thing I think would help (oh geez, where did I leave that flame-retardant jumpsuit):

It would mean more work for HTC guys, sorry, but, a complete downloadable, printable manual. The tiny control & dot command manuals are not sufficient for most who have played for a few months, not to mention total newbies. A nice big "For the new user" section could easily give step by step directions for taking off, landing, why you stall right away, stuff like that.

Everybody that has had to try to remember the reams of stuff in the multiple page help file that exists now on the website or bug somebody while flyin for particular info prob. knows what I mean. Even including sections on things I see asked a lot on this BBS, like: bomb load to take out certain targs or effects of taking out strat targs. on reset times wouldn't hurt either. (Sorry HT, didn't mean to suggest something that would increase your workload, but, well, I think it's something that's overdue).

As far as the TA goes, I haven't seen anybody in there hunting newbies like hobbled cows. On no occasion have I seen somebody ignore a request for help from anybody in TA. Even as poorly skilled as I am, if nobody else is there to help that is more qualified, I will gladly try to help, as patiently as a 2-year old's mother. I haven't once seen anybody act differently in TA. But, yes, it is hard to get them to go there. I didn't try the TA til after my 2 weeks was up, I go there often now, because I'll often find good trainers & sometimes seasoned vets like citabria to fly against. It's a damned good way to learn. I bug guys all the time for info on how they just did that particular manuever without the hassles involved in MA.

I seem to have lost my train of thought...

Oh yeah, more comprehensive DLable manual. Think it would be a good idea  

- kidcol2 -

[sourkraut]

KKEN -

That should be $360 per customer since all you costs are on an annual basis. So that would be less than 1000 paying customers per year (if all of your figures were right).
By the way, if these talented folks are only getting $40K a year, please send your resumes to me. I am sure I can put you to work in sunny Syracuse, NY. (No, Hitech - I really am not trying to recruit your talent away  )

Sour

[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 09-07-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

Kidcol, under LINKS, DOWNLOADS, theres a file called AHINFO.ZIP.  Its a manual for getting one up to speed on keyboard commands,view system, etc.  It does NOT cover flight dynamics, etc. as that would require too lengthy of format.

Regards,
Ripsnort

------------------
Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO= VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Know your limits and then go beyond.."
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info
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I spare no class or cult or  creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton

[Westy]

 Always thought (and I mentioned it a few times) that one idea would be an easy/relaxed guppy pool where upon after XXXXX amount of points are accumulated  or at the end of a 30,60 or 90 day period you then have to move up to where the big fish swim.

 How much easier could it get for them then? There would be the free "two week, no obligation" trial which segwayds into, say, a $10/mo guppy try out period before finaly you end up having to anty up the $30 cod for the big boys arena?

 -Westy

[Hajo]

DAGO well said!  Let me offer my humble opinion also.  I've been an on-line simmer a long time....mostly Air Warrior, a very little WB and now AH.  First WB, nice game, not as well done as AH.as a matter of fact just by seing PYRO and HT on-line one can see the effort put forth to make and continue to make AH worth every penny of 30 american dollars. Now Air Warrior, if one likes a first person shooter, a video game, and you think 30 dollars is to much, go there!  <G>  AW can in no way compare in quality to AH.  For the longtime online flight simmer AH is the way to go IMHO (in my humble opinion) remember Air warrior is now owned by EA and AW has stagnated over the last almost 4 years!  EA is a large Corp. and sometimes they see things one way, theirs. The short time I've been in AH I've seen more input from the players expressed to HT and Pyro personnaly and on-line then I saw input from the player to Kesmais AW, input for years was ignored by Kesmai, sort of take what we give you and like it!  Believe me, take it from an old online flight simmer, nothing can compare or even comes close in quality, the effort to upgrade the game and keep it at this high standard, and the input from the players directly to HT and Pyro instead of E-Mailing the talking heads that represent EA etc.  I know of at least 20 AW players that have come here in the last month, and plan to make this our home.  To paraphrase a line from Field of Dreams  "If you build it, they will come".  The word is spreading in the AW community about AH, some are coming, most are staying, lets get the word out!  I've flown them all and this believe me is the best value for the quality I've seen to date for on-line flight Sims!

Hajo Out <G>

[Hajo]

And Another Thing!  Cripes you're whining about paying 30 bucks???  LOL first off if you're an online flight simmer with any dedication ya gots a PC with a vid card that cost 300 bucks new, or upgraded, ya have a joystick that ya paid over 60 dollars for, you also have rudder pedals that cost at least 40 bucks, and if you're like me ya have a pro throttle that whacked ya close to 100 bucks!  Hmmmm now go play one of those 9.99 version online flight sims.....don't make sense do it? <G>  All that money for equipment to play a first person shooter <G>

OK.....on the training part....don't remember who said offer training arena with plane sets etc, and about newbies being discouraged about getting killed for 30 bucks....good points!  Give'em newbie arena for 30 days, free with trainers on-site!  Ya gots ta learn to fly without kiling yourself before worrying about killing the enemy!  training and newbie arena very very good idea.  Hell even air warrior offers training arenas, you could fly there to a certain point and ya got booted into the bigtime!  Maybe newbie arena with trainers the way to go to keep the players that are new to online flight sims.  I remember when I was new to AW....was ugly, not much better now as a matter of fact, but at least I know which button to start the engine <G>  still looking for button to raise the landing gear....Also post when downloading the game to: PLEASE DOWNLOAD AND PRINT THE AH INFO FILE FOR KEYBOARD COMMANDS AND CONTROLS!

Hajo....longwinded as usual <G>

[K-KEN]

Nice Catch..absolutely right, had to run to work for a few hours and rushed that calculation.  Is there 1,000 players, do they make that, we don't know.  But the topic did ask for a price cut....and at $10.00 a month, triple the paperwork, but don't increase sales.  Not feasable.  Thanks for the correction...Sour.


 

Originally posted by sourkraut:
KKEN -

That should be $360 per customer since all you costs are on an annual basis. So that would be less than 1000 paying customers per year (if all of your figures were right).
By the way, if these talented folks are only getting $40K a year, please send your resumes to me. I am sure I can put you to work in sunny Syracuse, NY. (No, Hitech - I really am not trying to recruit your talent away   )

Sour

[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 09-07-2000).]

K-KEN

 http://www.cutthroats.com/