Author Topic: Stick force and pilot fatigue (Read 1472 times)

Pongo · « **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »

Is this another thread about SW? They all seem to end up being about him sooner or later.
We avarage eyesight as if all pilots in ww2 were the same.
We average G resistance as if all pilots in WW2 were the same.
But we cant avarage stanima for some reason to do with SW lifting bags of cement.
Well I guess we cant then.. But it seems to me that we could assume that all of us are some average pilot in WW2 and if we perform a given manuver needing a given amount of exertion then we could penalize a player in some generic way. Lessen his resistance to Gs or Lower the stick force he can exert and limit the manuverability of his plane.
Seems a worthy potential addition to me.
Fully rested everyone is equal but if they push themselves too far they will be at a disadvantage vs a fresh pilot. It doesnt penalize turn fighters specifically, It penalizes people that cant ballance the inclusion of yet another depletable resource in the game.
Maybe start by limiting the strength of a wounded pilot. See how that works and what the issues are. Then maybe broaden it later.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #16 on:** August 07, 2001, 11:56:00 AM »

Pongo, I hear they are removing LuftWeener planes..

Run along.

"We avarage eyesight as if all pilots in ww2 were the same."

Yeah man, except you forgot that if you can't see well in the real world.. putting icons above the planes, you are still going to have problems seeing.

Didn't think about that one, did ya?
-SW

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #17 on:** August 07, 2001, 11:58:00 AM »

xBat, yes I weight lift.

I was watching Discovery wings a few years back and they had an interview with some pilots that fly jets for the USAAF.

They said that upper body strength, muscle mass, and ability to strain neck/shoulder/chest/back muscles will keep more blood in your head and help you endure more Gs for a longer period of time.
-SW

Angus · « **Reply #18 on:** August 07, 2001, 01:03:00 PM »

A few comments on this discussion.
I think it is an interesting factor to incorporate in AH, even if only for the spice, - Pilot grunting and complaining

This would probably not make such a difference, since sustained G's also bleed away your E's, so if this was incorporated, it would probably kick in when viciously fighting from high alt to the deck.
It could change long fights a bit, - a Spitfire starting to roll slower because of the pilot getting tired in his arms....the 109 vs p47 example mentioned in this thread, etc. etc.
Someone said :
SW that's not a bad point. I would model it just to be thorough, but in a WW2 fighter which can only sustain at most 3 g, it's not going to be a big factor.

This is not entirely right. The late ww2 fighters could sustain above 6 G's for quite some time. This was reason enough to begin using pressure suits, which I belive both the English and the Germans did, - some 262 pilots had them, and the English were trying them out as well, first in Hurricanes, but since the Hurries used could ONLY sustain about 5G, they moved on to late model Spitfires...
Reading the autobiographies of ww2 pilots one can also assume that pilot fatique was a large factor, and it would even take one good dogfight to exhaust a pilot.
About the size of pilots, there is one more thing. The tall pilot would usually pass out in a tight G turn before the short one, so there the Japanese are the winners!!
However, the generally STRONG pilot would be able to do more extreme maneuvers at high speeds especially, and the FIT pilot would be able to stay through more abuse than others...
I guess that featuring fatique is maybe not so simple after all. But an interesting point

batdog · « **Reply #19 on:** August 07, 2001, 01:14:00 PM »

Coolies Swulf. Heh... yea I bet squating and dead lifts would help with that tolorence some

I've been lifting for years... its saved me from some serious injury several times. The wife digs it too.

xBAT

Sombra · « **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2001, 02:16:00 PM »

Sometimes i think the USA are indeed a communist country. Do not worry guys the god market pleases to all!

DeeZCamp · « **Reply #21 on:** August 07, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »

Quote

They said that upper body strength, muscle mass, and ability to strain neck/shoulder/chest/back muscles will keep more blood in your head and help you endure more Gs for a longer period of time.

I disagree wulf.. When you have very large viens, and are very muscular,... the arteries, as well as other underlying tissue enables large capacity for collapsing. A person that has a good physical build with fatty layers would most likey have a better ability to restrain G's.

While in the Air force I have spoken with a few pilots,(F-16,F-18,A-10,B-2) and while some of having a muscule mass is good, it is also very bad.

The most important factor that all here have missed though is the distance from the Heart to the Brain. It has been clearly identified that women pilots are able to withstand more G's than men, due to the shortened distance from heart to brain. Less distance for blood to travel and thus less effort.

Also when pulling g forces in excess of 3+ your neck muscles and back muscles play a part but not nearly as much as , ... the Leg mucles quads, calfs, and others that are detrimental to keeping the blood in the upper cavity of your body.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #22 on:** August 07, 2001, 02:42:00 PM »

That just reminded me about the legs, they would strain their legs to keep blood in the upper part of their body.

Other than that, everything I said came from USAAF fighter pilots.
-SW

Pongo · « **Reply #23 on:** August 07, 2001, 03:15:00 PM »

SW
'Yeah man, except you forgot that if you can't see well in the real world.. putting icons above the planes, you are still going to have problems seeing.

Didn't think about that one, did ya?
-SW

'
No I didnt. And reading it I dont understand it, so I probebly would never have thought of it.
Dots appear at a set distance in the game. They turn into an ID at a set distance in the game. In real life the dot would appear to people at differnt ranges based on their eye sight. They would ID the con at different ranges based on eyesight.(all other conditions being identical)So visibility is averaged in the game.(asuming we can all see our monitors)
Strength is also averaged. No one gets the advantage of Robert Johnsons arms to wrench his jug arround(or we all do..) Why not stanima?

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #24 on:** August 07, 2001, 03:20:00 PM »

You are still going to have problems seeing something on the monitor if your eyesight is bad.

The strength goes hand in hand with stamina, so as you lose stamina you can no longer control your plane?

"Look at me, I'm the top ace because I can make people tired!"

wow!
-SW

NUTTZ · « **Reply #25 on:** August 07, 2001, 03:22:00 PM »

Just to let you's know Size of a person has NO bearing on fatigue.

NUTTZ

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #26 on:** August 07, 2001, 03:35:00 PM »

I've just had a 10 minute battle with 2 109's while flying my Hellcat. Due to the uber nature of allied design, I manage to dispatch of both 109s and begin to return home. I am then bounced by a 190F-8 and am outmaneuvered. I look down at my fatigue guage and discover it is because I was tired out from the previous flight. Fatigue guage.
I'm flying along and see a furball. I know that if I wait long enough, the participants in the action will be too tired to be able to perform any hard maneuvers and they should be easy pickins.

In WW2, pilots were fatigued for many reasons. I'd tend to say that g-force induced stress was way down on the list.

Implimenting this will not be more historical. It will not be more realistic. It will not be more accurate. It will simply be gamey.

AKDejaVu

Pongo · « **Reply #27 on:** August 07, 2001, 03:54:00 PM »

SW are we debating whether fatigue was a major factor in ww2 air combat?
or whether it can be modeled in the game?

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #28 on:** August 07, 2001, 03:58:00 PM »

I'm arguing what are you modelling? And why?

Are you modelling getting tired from dogfighting for all but 10 minutes? (uhm)

Are you modelling getting tired from the above, and beginning to black out quicker and at less Gs?

Are you modelling.. just what are you modelling and what reasons do you have to believe it should be modelled?

No books, no "I heard...", no "well I get tired behind the wheel of my car"...

I want you to tell me exactly what experience you have had lugging a fighter's joystick (hey guys, don't forget the leverage they have sitting in a seat strapped to the plane with their feet on the rudder pedals for yet, MORE leverage) at an average of whatever weight you want to use and what speeds.

This seems to me more of a "it seems cool, I have no idea if it's realistic or not..." thing...
EDIT: I have my suspicions at to why some people want these feature..
-SW

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #29 on:** August 07, 2001, 04:03:00 PM »

I also find it interesting, that all of you have chosen to ignore that in these history books that you are no doubt placing your faith in to get certain things modelled... that you don't read "After 20 minutes of circling around the skies, I was finally so exhausted I took my hands off the controls and was shot down"

Nature gave us adrenaline for a reason...
-SW