Author Topic: Stick force and pilot fatigue (Read 1482 times)

Pongo · « **Reply #30 on:** August 07, 2001, 04:36:00 PM »

You seem to be saying that fatigue is not relevent in WW2 fighter combat.
Right?

duffus · « **Reply #31 on:** August 07, 2001, 05:09:00 PM »

Guys I'm going on 60, this forcefeedback stick fatigues me.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #32 on:** August 07, 2001, 05:21:00 PM »

I am saying it is not relative at the amount of time we dogfight for, the amount of time we spend in the air, and the amount of time that we are generally playing.

There is absolutely _NO_ relation between Aces High, WarBirds, WW2Ol with the real World War 2. The only connections are with the names and the way things are created.

I simply do not understand how you can think that what happens in a real war can be carried over to a game that operates under the notion of simply recreating air combat, not managing a *ahem* virtual pilot with a *ahem* guage that tells the player his *ahem* virtual pilot is getting tired.

It's so... well fake.
-SW

DeeZCamp · « **Reply #33 on:** August 07, 2001, 05:45:00 PM »

I think that Adding the Fatigue factor shouldnt be based on a set "GAUGE" or measure of how much over the long run.

What should and could be implmented could be At a given set G say around 6 (where aces currently starts blacking out pretty good) Possibly reduce control at those times.

It would add realisim in a certain way, but then again other factors would have to play in to the equation. (not all pilots are created equal). In aces they may be Made to be equal across the board.

A question I have however is... What planes offer better Seat positioning to deal/cope with flight under high G.??

If those who are not familiar with what I am talking about, I am comparing something to the likes of what a Modern Fighter say an... F-16 (with a almost 45 degree slant) vs somehting like an F15 that feels about 85 Degrees) has.

I am not sure if this is even modeled into aces.

Anyway back to the G thing

Implement it,... it could be good for the Immersive factor as well as almost make everyone fly with more care. Instead of Insta-furball-quake-fastpaced-action-sim-shooter.

Pongo · « **Reply #34 on:** August 07, 2001, 07:44:00 PM »

More fake then G forces? or bullet dispersion? or clouds?

I never said anything about a gauge. Is there a red out gauge? Dont you agree that the strength of the pilot must allready be factored into AH in some way? Isnt a planes manuverability somewhat limited by the strength of the pilot(in a non boosted non fly by wire plane). A certain stick force must be assumed in the normal stats and there for in AH. But there is no strength gauge that I have seen.
How can you play such a gamey game...

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #35 on:** August 07, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »

If you are talking about the pressure that can be applied to a stick and modify the plane's manueverability with that, I don't care.

But, if you are saying that you want our pilot to suffer fatigue and begin to not be able pull as much as he could when the fight first begin, then I will care.
-SW

Thunder · « **Reply #36 on:** August 07, 2001, 08:29:00 PM »

Hmm,

I guess where this is all going is that we will have to whine to HTC for a G-suit and ofcoarse this will have to be heavily PERKED hehe!

Releif tubes for long flights will be on the drawing board but what I want to know is how are we going to model a hangover for the Fat Drunk Bastards?

Salute

batdog · « **Reply #37 on:** August 07, 2001, 09:20:00 PM »

Well... I quess my girlie pics would have to go as all the blood would be in the section below my waist ...

xBAT

Pongo · « **Reply #38 on:** August 07, 2001, 10:47:00 PM »

SW
So your answer then is that strength and fatigue would be issues in WW2 fighter combat but should not be in the game.

I myself realize that we cannot give the game a realistic fatigue system anymore than we can give it a realistic radar system. But it is interesting to theorize how the game might be changed to have fatigue like features. Sort of a fatigue simulation.

I think a different wound system might be a neat start. Just to see how things could be affected. Reding out the pilot like he is sort of passing out is not realisic! Limit his strength... slow his head movements down. Slow the response of his flight commands. Delay his trim settings for 1 second.

Remember the fatigue system in Falcon 3.0? Where after 2 flights your pilots were layed up in bed for a week and you had to use the other weirdos in you squad. that was lame.. not like that..

SOB · « **Reply #39 on:** August 08, 2001, 01:29:00 AM »

I like the idea of different effects caused by your pilot being wounded, but this pilot fatigue thing would be more of a detrement than a nice addition. I'm all for realistic situations, and even unfair sides in scenarios is fun for me, but this could skew things to the rediculous.

Imagine coming out of a knockdown, dragout dogfight on top, great fight and you won. Now, you meet up with another enemy, and you've got three choices:

1- Run, and hope to god he's got a slower plane than you do.
2- HO, and hope that he is up for it and that you win.
3- Get in a fight with him in which you have no possible chance of surviving because your plane is performing as tho' it's got an elevator & aileron missing because your pilot is "fatigued".

Although you could face the same problems with effects to a wounded pilot, you'd actually be penalized for something going wrong. You got shot, now you have to deal with the consequences.

SOB

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: SOB ]

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #40 on:** August 08, 2001, 08:33:00 AM »

Okay, now adding fatigue from wounds makes sense. You can't do too much manuevering without risking out blacking out sooner, and you can't.. well I'm sure you have better ideas than I do.

I do not remember Falcon 3.0, I was a prophead, the only jet games I played were the Jane's series... and they were just, well, games.

I do think that fatigue was a huge factor in the real war. I mean, these guys got like 6-8 hours of sleep (I'm tired after 8 hours.. sooo), they got up at 4-5:30AM in the morning, briefed (slept) for 2 hours, then took off and were exposed to a warm comfortable sun in a cold, cold environment (so it felt warm and they got sleepy).

Then in combat, it was a lot of manuevering, assuming they saw the enemy, and no doubt worked up a sweat. I believe they would be exhausted *after* a dogfight, but during it, I think they were too preoccupied to care.

I don't think it's possible to give a model as to how the human body can get tired. Maneuvering will make you tired, granted, but when your adrenaline kicks in, you won't be tired until after the fact.

I just think building a fatigue model will make the focus of the game be on managing your pilot, which in turn means everyone will grab the latest, greatest, fastest, bestest plane in the game.

Instead of <N1K2, F4U-1C, SpitIX> whines we'll have <P51D, 190D9, 109G10> whines because everyone wants to keep their pilot from getting tired. The only way to do that is make a few passes, not turn and keep going straight... like Nascar....
-SW

jedi · « **Reply #41 on:** August 08, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »

Fatigue has an impact on G-tolerance. It does not have an impact (or very little) on whether you can actually move the controls (unless of course you are unconscious and thus can't move the controls)

At most, a "fatigue factor" might produce a very SLIGHT decrease in your ability to get FULL deflection at very HIGH speed. It would, however, limit the G you could take before your vision was effected, and how long it takes you to "recover" before you could pull your personal "max G" again.

It's a good feature to put in, but you have to do it JUST right, and "realistically," or it's just a bogus difficulty factor. If they put it in without asking the real acro and fighter pilots first how it should work, it'll be wrong, I guarantee it. You have to have "felt" it, to know how it should work.

Pongo · « **Reply #42 on:** August 08, 2001, 10:15:00 AM »

Well those are valid points. I looked last night for mentions of fatigue in some of the books I have but found only fatigue related to searching all the time.I will keep looking.

I have to agree that the work involved in writing a fatigue system would not be as well spent as many other things I could think of, but it is interesting to think of how the bodys limitations could be elegantly expressed in a game.

Maybe in general the views should change at a speed that shows how the turn is done. Instantanios for the side and top views cause your mostly using peripheral or turning your eyes only. But anything outside of that first turn happens slower. Cause A your head turns slower then your eyes and B your eyes really need a sec to adjust to what they see if you fling your head around.

The big reason people probebly want fatigue is to prevent the constant bat turns that some planes are capapble of in AH but the pilots wouldnt be able to maintain. But really the pilots here have way fewer chances to seperate in a slower plane then they would in real life. The abundent enviromental obsticals and the lack of an Icon made separating in RL far easier even if your plane was slower. So letting someone turn for longer is not necessarily a bad ballanceing concesion for taking away most of the chances they would have to escape.

Toad · « **Reply #43 on:** August 08, 2001, 11:38:00 AM »

What Jedi said.

Also, don't discount adrenaline.

I did my "personal best" highest/longest standing jump one day on the Wyoming shortgrass prairie. I was walking along with my rifle on my shoulder when I step across a prairie rattler. He buzzed as I was straddling him, left foot in front of him, right foot just behind him. I snapped a look down at him and did my highest, longest jump to date. I doubt I will ever equal that for height or distance again.

Think how you'd perform when the tracers went whizzing by your left shoulder.

Pongo · « **Reply #44 on:** August 08, 2001, 11:45:00 AM »

Adrenaline has a nasty after effect. More fatigue.