Author Topic: My pet peeve: Ground Vehicles. (Read 1051 times)

Taiaha · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2002, 09:33:52 PM »

I think this goes beyond the category of whining, into that great beyond of soul-riven anguish that Rude defined as "Wailing."

And at the same time, he's absolutely right. Haven't played GVs at all this tour, except for a couple of AA M16s, don't intend to. I've heard all the stories about how if you get this angle, or hit em in this spot, blah blah blah. But I've seen and experienced too much to convince me that damage modelling in the GV world is anything but a crap shoot at the moment (and when you couple that with my crappy shooting, things aint looking too good!).

Although I'm pretty much a plane junky, I know a lot of people like the GVs and I think there's a serious case for tarting up this area of AH something considerable in the next release--new GVs and some realistic workings for the old ones.

Tumor · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2002, 09:45:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
MrLars, couple things.

1. Smoke is now bugged. The only person that SEES smoke is the person that fired it. At least, that is how I presume it works, since I couldnt see any smoke people said they were firing (friendly anyway).

I've been wondering about that. Is that true? If so it really REALLY needs to be fixed.

Tumor

Karnak · « **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2002, 09:54:42 PM »

Attacking Ostwinds is the single biggest gamble that I do in this game. I know that all he has to do is hit me once, and I have to get in range of his gun to fire my rockets, or drop my bombs with any accuracy or, heaven forbid, make a guns run on it:eek:.

If any current vehicle warants perking, its the Ostwind. Like the F4U-1C before it, it does everything well. It is more destructive to fields than a PnZ IV H and better against aircraft than an M-16 MGC. It gets more kills than all other vehicles combined.

I'd like to see these vehicles, maybe they'd even it out:

M4A3
Panther V G
Priest
Puma
T-34/85

And a new damage model.

SKurj · « **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2002, 11:26:26 PM »

Ok...

I've got a couple hundred kills in GV's this tour...

My findings from the spawn camp at 102...

M8 can kill a pz turret from close range in one shot
M8 can kill osty turret one shot BUT seems the sweet spot is smaller than pz turret

pz can kill M8 turret in one shot or the whole thing if u aim lo side. Higher shots may not kill m8 ...

Ostwind is the only vehicle needed in AH... an adjustment, NOT perking is required IMO for gameplay's sake. They are too offensively capable...

BTW an m3 can take out osty, and PZ turrets with a few hits but only in the right place. The pz seems to have a weak spot from the front to the right of the gun between the outer armor ring and the main turret armor.

Would the community scream if the osty was loaded with 300 rounds instead of 1000? no.. Would the community scream if the osty's armor weakened... no

SKurj

Tumor · « **Reply #19 on:** July 16, 2002, 12:25:09 AM »

Anyone (else) having problems killing aircraft with an Osti since 1.10? I don't know what, why or how, but I can't seem to hit an aircraft with an Osti at all lately. Been wondering if HTC made some kind of change. I used to be able to hit aircraft at relatively long range with ease. Now it seem's futile to even try.

The other day CSMC and I were both within 500ft of eachother in Osti's and someone (for some reason I think it was Grimm) made no less than 6 passes at us, both of us blasting away and ..... nothing. I mean that Mossie was getting as close as 500ft. Same thing happened to me (and at least 1 other Osti) with a Hellcat and C-47 flying around above a V field they were trying to capture, except the C-47 never got any closer then 1.3d.

Anyone else?

CavemanJ · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2002, 12:42:36 AM »

What is the ostwind's percentage of kills out of all kills?

The F4U-1C was perked cause it was running at about, what, 25% of all kills in the arena? I seem to recall a number mid-20,000's for the C hog. I'll try to dig up those old threads later.

But it deffinately says something when the ostwind is responsible for near 60% of all vehicle kills.

And the 37mm HE shells from the ostwind do have an awfully effective hit on the panzer. Try popping a panzer with the 75mm HE shells from another panzer. If you're lucky you'll throw a track. If you're even luckier you'll knock out his engine.

If ya can kill his turret ya better head for vegas/reno/atlantic city while lady luck is riding yer jock.

Samm · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2002, 01:18:51 AM »

The reason for ground vehilces in AH is to give attack planes moving targets. Like it or not AH is all about the airplane, everything else is there to compliment them .

Urchin · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2002, 01:37:57 AM »

But is it to much to ask for the ground vehicles to be useful and fun in their own right? Not to mention modelled with the same care and accuracy that goes into the planes?

This is not an intentional 'dig' at HT and company, but GVs as a whole seem incredibly screwed up, for lack of a better term.

For instance, we know (from extensive debate started by a 'whine' of mine) that a .50 caliber machinegun bullet CAN penetrate the armor of a Panzer IV. It can go through the top decking, and I believe the rear armor if the gun is close enough (I can't remember to be honest, it has been a while).

What effect would a 37mm AP shell have going through a M3? Well, it certainly seems that it would depend on where you hit it at- but it doesn't seem to. The M8's 37mm AP round does little or no damage to the M3 or M16, no matter where you hit it.

Similarly, we KNOW how the different rounds are modelled for the planes. For cannons, a 'composite' round is modelled based on what the typical belt was. Is it the same way for the Ostwind? would a 37mm AP round kill a plane in one hit no matter where you hit it? Or would it just make a 37mm hole and be on its merry way? One would certainly expect that a mobile AA gun would use High Explosive rounds, as these would seem to be far more damaging to rather fragile airplanes. But the Ostwind is, if not the most effective unit for killing other AFVs, at least a very close second. So this would lead one to believe that the Ostwind has AP rounds. Or does the Ostwind have HEAP rounds (which as far as I know were not even in existance in WW2, but I could be wrong)?

Also, some things just don't seem logical. How can a .50 caliber machinegun have more stopping power than a 37mm cannon? It doesn't you say? Take an M3 and go head to head with an M8, you will change your mind quickly.

I understand that the GVs are in Aces High primarily for 'flavor' as it were. I don't think that means that they should be neglected like they have been.

Tumor · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2002, 01:56:01 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by CavemanJ
What is the ostwind's percentage of kills out of all kills?

If ya can kill his turret ya better head for vegas/reno/atlantic city while lady luck is riding yer jock.

I get my Turret killed by single shots from Panzers on a regular basis. I only manage to do that to other folks occasionally.... unless:

I'm beginning to think there's a bug or two... or FE problem or something going on that I just don't know about.

I've been killed outright by Panzers ALLOT by single pings... or at least what I think is single pings. Further... I've been hit (Turret killed or killed outright) by single shots at EXTREMELY long range far more than I would expect possible. I know there are good shots out there... but I have a very hard time with getting killed by a single "first shot" at ranges of 28k and above (and thats a stretch).

I've noticed that it "seems" to me that when folks have tracers turned off, you don't get explosion sounds OR craters from missed shots 100% of the time... Further.... I "think" perhaps sometimes for whatever reason, I do not hear "hits" to my machine. Just speculation, but it just seems way too improbable for someone to make first shot hits at really long range, especially when you get killed on that first shot.

Last... I still think the whole GV damage/lethality thing needs a look. Nothing seem's consistant. I've taken up to 5 hits before getting killed, and I've had my turret knocked out with one shot (most of this happens at ranges beyond 24... I don't like to get in close). And the same happens to the other guy when I'm the one landing hits (except for the single shot kills, may have actually happened once or twice) with AP, more often it takes me between 3 and 6 hits to knock out a Panzer or Osti. However... I've killed a Panzer with 2 HE rounds, and almost ALWAYS knock out a engine or track with a single HE round thats a NEAR MISS. The worst thing I've seen was beneficial to me but probably a real issue with the other guy... I knocked out a Panzer with my puny little M3 .50<<<< that just aint right. I was very lucky as we both crested a ridge at exactly the same time facing each other, probably 50ft apart lol. Neither of us knew the other guy was coming, but with my much wider field of view I saw him immediately and I guess I knocked out his turret because he never fired a shot... took him about 15 seconds to find me but I just kept rattling away until BOOM.

devious · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2002, 02:39:32 AM »

Well, the damage model for GVs seems porked - Pz IV 7.5cm underpowered, Osty and .50s overpowered....

Data on the KwK 42 L/70 (the PzKpfw IV's main gun):

Ballistische Angaben:	7,5 cm PzGr 39/42	7,5 cm PzGr 40/42	7,5 cm SprGr 42
Munitionsgewicht (Patrone) (kg)	14,30	11,55	11,14
Geschoßgewicht (kg)	6,8	4,75	5,74
V₀ (m/sec)	925	1.120	700
Mündungswucht (mt)	297	298	?
Patronenlänge (mm)	893,2	875,2	929,2
Durchschlagsleistung bei 90° (60°) Auftreffwinkel (mm):
0 m Entfernung	167 (133)	230 (197)	-
450 m Entfernung	149 (121)	198 (154)	-
900 m Entfernung	133 (110)	170 (123)	-
1350 m Entfernung	118 (99)	145 (99)	-
1850 m Entfernung	104 (89)	122 (80)	-
2300 m Entfernung	91 (79)	103 (65)	-

Dang, we need a NORDWIND (like an Osty, but QUAD GUN mwahaha)

Taiaha · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2002, 07:58:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tumor

The other day CSMC and I were both within 500ft of eachother in Osti's and someone (for some reason I think it was Grimm) made no less than 6 passes at us, both of us blasting away and ..... nothing. I mean that Mossie was getting as close as 500ft. Same thing happened to me (and at least 1 other Osti) with a Hellcat and C-47 flying around above a V field they were trying to capture, except the C-47 never got any closer then 1.3d.

Anyone else?

The couple of times I used an M16 I also had this same experience. Fired at two 110s coming directly over my pos, distances down to 300, and no hits. My gunnery aint great, but these were sure things. I would put it down to lag problems that we're just not seeing? Or maybe I was just having one of my really off days!

Urchin, the only thing I'd disagree with you about is the fact that an Osty can kill a plane with one hit. That seems totally realistic to me. A 37 mm is a very big shell to hit a little plane, and a pilot would have to be very, very lucky for such a hit not to cause catastrophic damage even if the shell wasn't HE. The kinetic energy alone of that much mass would do terrible damage to an airframe. But I do wonder if the AP shell of the Osty does have some explosive component modelled within it. And I guess the other issue here is that I'm always a little skeptical when I hear guys say they were shot down by one hit from an Osty. How do you judge that? If it's by the number of pings, well, we know that's no indication of how many rounds are actually hitting. And if you are taking more than one 37mm round then you are in deep doo doo.

BTW, anyone know what kind of shell the 37mm on the Yak 9-T fires? It seems to work equally well against buffs and GVs. Is it psychic?

MoonJuice · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2002, 08:03:34 AM »

I feel Urchin's pain.

But he forgot to mention that the hull gun on the Ostie is extremely ubber also. It sprays a shower of death faster than it's 37mm can.

When it's Ostie vs Ostie, jump to the hull gun.

Rather than perk the Ostie, I think, the killing/destructive power of the Panzer's AP and HE rounds should be increased.

I have found it takes about 20 to 40 HE rounds to kill a building in a Panzer. I think that should be reduced to 5.

And 1 to 2 AP rounds should take out an Ostie. Right now it takes any where from 5 to 10 - assuming you can kill the Ostie before he gets his 2 to 3 rounds into you.

My opinion is not science, no data charts, not based upon realism...

I'm just making this up for game play.

CavemanJ · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2002, 08:08:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Taiaha

And I guess the other issue here is that I'm always a little skeptical when I hear guys say they were shot down by one hit from an Osty. How do you judge that? If it's by the number of pings, well, we know that's no indication of how many rounds are actually hitting. And if you are taking more than one 37mm round then you are in deep doo doo.

Well, from my ostwind driving experience, I see one hit sprite on a plane I look for another target. The target is toast. The except to this are the heavy buffs. Sometimes a lanc will take 4-5 hits before it disentitgrates. One ping from an osti is lethal to any of the fighter aircraft in game.

On the flip side of the coin, many many tours ago there was alot of whining about one ping kills. HT changed the coding so you would hear every hit on your airframe. Ever get sent back to the tower and continue to hear hits on your (now gone) airframe? That's what it is.

CavemanJ · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2002, 08:12:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tumor

I get my Turret killed by single shots from Panzers on a regular basis. I only manage to do that to other folks occasionally....

Go read my post again Tumor. I said 75mm HIGH EXPLOSIVE
I generally disable a panzer, either engine or turret, on the first or second shot. There is the rare exception that will eat 20 AP rounds, then finally find me and kill me with 1 shot.

Nifty · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2002, 09:03:09 AM »

I would give him 2 full bonus points on the whine for working a Star Wars reference in, but he screwed up Padawan, so he only gets a 1.5 bonus.

Seriously, GVs need an overhaul like the buffs just got. Let's hope we see this in 1.11 or 1.12.