Killshooter again

[straffo]

KS ?
no ... it's just Darwinism at work ... sometime it help me remind that there's a lot more bad word in french than I believe

[Rude]

I rarely die from KS....when I do, it's annoying.

Let me preface the following by saying I don't really care if it stays the same or get's changed.

Ok...I would prefer that ammo was live and that whoever flew into my guns died. No PNG...no killshooter....just guns on. I believe that peer pressure alone would police your countrymates.

But, like I said, I don't really care what HT does and I know for a fact, that what I suggested will never happen.

I understand Todds view as well....what he speaks of is the reason why I don't die from killshooter very often...gotta know whats up around you at all times during a fight.

Matter of fact, the times I do die from killshooter is by the hands of my own squadmates...flyin in the 13th reminds me of a pack of wild dogs fighting for a bite....if you're not aggressive, you won't ever get any kills:)

[Gremlin]

Originally posted by Rude
Ok...I would prefer that ammo was live and that whoever flew into my guns died. No PNG...no killshooter....just guns on. I believe that peer pressure alone would police your countrymates.

Rude, the two weeks wonder who flys up your rear end and blows you and the bandit away doesnt care about peer pressure.  He wont be here in two weeks anyway.

[Hangtime]

Thats the whole point it is your fault. As soon as you understand that killshooter wont be a problem for you.

Horsepucky!!

Gawdamn.. is this the internet... or RL?

Freakin furballs mean warps.. warps means inadvertent killshooter deaths.. have you guys simply decided to ignore internet reality and have decidied that what the game has now is IT, that it can't be improved, that flaws arn't in there, that improvements cannot be made, that it's freakin created PERFECT now, unassailabe, unimprovable?

Damn, I've been here since jump street. Paid my dues, even when I didn't fly months at a time.. don't try and tell me I'm overeacting here.. you guys are touting a roadkill kill system that becoming more of a problem as numbers in the furballs and in the MA increase.

Sayin it ain't a problem, that killin yerself because some warpy guy pops up in front is YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT is cheerleading horseshit... and I'm sorry, I've got pretty good SA.. but not so good that I can line up a deflection shot, shoot and look out the back all at the same freakin time. And if yer tryin to tell me you CAN, yer full of crap too.

Anything that leads to my freakin airplane NOT flyin into confetti when my rounds inadvertantly hit a friendly is a good thing.

Now, gawdammit, READ the quote below. Explain to me again how much skin off yer tulips this would take??

There would be no visible effect when hitting a friendly. When you got back to the tower, there would be a popup stating "you have hit a friendly xxx number of times. xxx of additional hits on a friendly will lower your overall guns lethality to 75 percent" Then it would go to 50 percent, 25, then zero. This would reset at the beginning of each tour.

[Gremlin]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Now, gawdammit, READ the quote below. Explain to me again how much skin off yer tulips this would take??


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There would be no visible effect when hitting a friendly. When you got back to the tower, there would be a popup stating "you have hit a friendly xxx number of times. xxx of additional hits on a friendly will lower your overall guns lethality to 75 percent" Then it would go to 50 percent, 25, then zero. This would reset at the beginning of each tour.
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Hang,

Can you not see the blindingly obvious flaw?? You fly on day 1 of the tour and due to internet warps/dweebs etc you make the criteria for 0% ammo effectiveness.  Now you got no guns for a whole month.  I gotta 56k connect, not the greatest, not the worst prolly similar to most AH players. I have never died to KS where it wasnt down to my own plain stupidity, not warps/dweebs fault, my fault. When I do it I kick myself not the guy who flew in front of me.

BTW thx for a great time in the rumble m8:)

[Wotan]

you gotta a hat switch mate look around either you got the shot or the friendly closing fast does. All ya gotta do is look and fire at closer ranges.

My squaddie are competive we fight each other for kills. We fly 30mm aircraft.

On vox channel we hear stuff like

"Check your fire I am in"

"Break I am in"

"Dammit I am off hes yours"

Hell even HT gave me the

"Wotan check your fire I am in"

I always give a quick look left or right sometimes I dont have a shot due to friendlies pushing for the kill.

Even on jabo runs we call out

"clear the vh(twn fh etc) i am in with ord"

Rarely does killshooter ever bother me. No offense but its mostly guys who fly 50 cal planes that complain over this. If ya think I am wrong due a search.

Thats because they fire over your shoulder all the time. When I see this I give a

"check your fire over vox"

if they keep it up I fly into their stream. F'umm we got to much spray and pray as is.

Killshooter a tool to teach you a lesson. The faster some guys learn the less they will be whining about it.

Lots of folks like it the way it is.

You shoot a friendly you die, just like "always drive defensively"

Well always watch whats going on around ya. 450 guys buzzin around the arena all wanting kills. No body gives a damn if you kill yourself. So whats the answer? Better SA

[Shiva]

I think the problem that most people have with the way killshooter works now is that it puts that "risk" on the wrong pilot.

The "risk" should be placed on the pilot flying in front of an already engaged friendly pilot.

Ok...I would prefer that ammo was live and that whoever flew into my guns died. No PNG...no killshooter....just guns on. I believe that peer pressure alone would police your countrymates.

If I remember correctly, from way back in the days of Air Warrior on GEnie, one of the reasons that PNG and killshooter -- or variations thereof -- were instituted was because of the presence of PK twits: people who would change countries so they could pop up on a field with a flakpanzer and  blow away all the people who were trying to take off to defend that field, or otherwise deliberately attack 'friendly' aircraft so that their 'real' country would get an advantage. Or just because they were total [CENSORED] who got their jollies out of shooting down people who weren't thinking about having to defend themselves from friendly planes as well as hostile ones. It also reined in the people who would take long-range shots at enemy planes that someone else was chasing closely, which because of the hit bubbles would usually result in the chasing plane taking the hits.

From what I read about other online games, though, the PK twits are still there and just as obnoxious; if HTC removed the killshooter code or trimmed it back so that it didn't provide an immediate 2x4 upside the head of a PK twit, we'd see a lot more friendly-fire incidents. It may not be the best solution, but killshooter does more than encourage people to be careful about firing into a dogfight.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Freakin furballs mean warps.. warps means inadvertent killshooter deaths.. have you guys simply decided to ignore internet reality and have decidied that what the game has now is IT, that it can't be improved, that flaws arn't in there, that improvements cannot be made, that it's freakin created PERFECT now, unassailabe, unimprovable?

[/B]

I have never... never... not since AW started it, and not now in AH... died by killshooter because someone warped into my guns.  I can honestly say that it was my fault every time it occurred, usually due to an SA breakdown or because I took a gamble that didn't pay off.  You also keep ignoring the fact that changing killshooter to the method that easymo describes won't rid the world of warps or "jokers" flying in front of your guns.  The problem now is that the long term consequences of these warps and gloriously unaware killshootees go way, way up.

Can it be improved?  Perhaps, but I haven't seen anything better before or since.  Easymo's suggestion is at best only as good as the current system, and it lacks the parsimony.

Damn, I've been here since jump street. Paid my dues, even when I didn't fly months at a time.. don't try and tell me I'm overeacting here.. you guys are touting a roadkill kill system that becoming more of a problem as numbers in the furballs and in the MA increase.

[/B]

For you, maybe.  Before I killshootered myself the other night, I hadn't unintentionally died by killshooter for four months.  Why?  Because proper SA and working for the best possible angle negates its impact.  You are overreacting, sorry.

You're sounding like an ex-AW guy complaining that HOs need to be artificially "reduced" because they're too prevalent and gamey.  Yet strangely, once the ex-AW jocks learn to avoid the HOs, they cease to be an issue.  The same is true with killshooter in its present incarnation.

Sayin it ain't a problem, that killin yerself because some warpy guy pops up in front is YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT is cheerleading horseshit... and I'm sorry, I've got pretty good SA.. but not so good that I can line up a deflection shot, shoot and look out the back all at the same freakin time. And if yer tryin to tell me you CAN, yer full of crap too.

[/B]

LOL It's not a matter of looking back or around when you're lining up a shot.  It's about noting where other planes are before you line up and keeping a tally in your head of where they're probably going to be when you fire.  It's also a matter of choosing the best possible angle and getting as close as possible to the enemy to minimize the possibility of mistakes.  In that sense, killshooter rewards realistic combat behavior.

You've now also claimed that a majority of people posting to this thread are full of crap cheerleaders.  If most of us don't have a problem with killshooter, maybe the problem lies somewhere other than killshooter itself.

Now, gawdammit, READ the quote below. Explain to me again how much skin off yer tulips this would take??

[/B]

I've already explained my reservations with easymo's approach.  Reading it again isn't going to change my opinion.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[NUKE]

modify killshooter to take out guns only, not kill.


Anyone think this too simple?

I think it solves every stated issue regarding current killshooter.

[Hangtime]

*sigh*

-- never had a guy warp in front of you?

-- have no problems keeping the speed/angle/time distance calculations for every a/c in yer close proximity in yer head while you line up yer shot...

what?? yer stephen hawkings with a supercomputer, 40" monitor and a console hookup at HTC????

Guess you fly a diffrent sim than me, Todd.



Data point:

Killshooter sucks wazoo.

Data point:

Another solution exists, one that does not penalize me for internet conditions and a MMOG enviornment where more than 32 planes are present in my vicinity.

BUT.. yer tellin me 'no problem exists'

I say roadkill!

Have a nice day.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by NUKE
modify killshooter to take out guns only, not kill.

Of all of the alternatives I've read about, this one always struck me as the best competitor to the current system.  It doesn't solve all of the so-called problems associated with the current killshooter setup however.

First of all, would gun damage be permanent or temporary?  If temporary like the "do not move your controls so rapidly" message, it doesn't act as a disincentive to spray 'n pray.  Most people would be willing to risk 10 seconds without guns in order to snipe a kill from over someone's shoulder.

If the gun damage remains until a replane, then the punishment seems overly severe.  Remember, it's possible to plink someone accidentally and live.  I've done that plenty of times and flown away without damage to my own plane.  I'd hate to think that I'd lose my guns by tapping someone accidentally with .303s.

Killing the guns arguably works best when you accidentally put a full on volley into a friendly.  If death were the only result from killshooter under the current system, I'd agree that killing the guns would be the best solution.  Keep in mind, however, that the guns solution... as well as easymo's solution... do nothing to alter the fundamental gameplay complaints made by Hangtime and others.  If warps are causing one to shoot friendlies, then no system is safe for the killshooter.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Hangtime
*sigh*

-- never had a guy warp in front of you?

[/B]

Of course I've had people warp in front of me.  What I didn't do was fill them full of steaming hot friendly fire.

-- have no problems keeping the speed/angle/time distance calculations for every a/c in yer close proximity in yer head while you line up yer shot...

[/B]

Obviously I'm not perfect at doing this, as I mentioned my death by killshooter from just the other night.  I find that the best way to avoid killshooter isn't to perfectly track other planes in your head, but rather to position yourself in such a way on the enemy aircraft as to render the probability of killshooter negligable.

what?? yer stephen hawkings with a supercomputer, 40" monitor and a console hookup at HTC????

[/B]

Um.  No.

Data point:

Killshooter sucks wazoo.

[/B]

I disagree.  

Data point:

Another solution exists, one that does not penalize me for internet conditions and a MMOG enviornment where more than 32 planes are present in my vicinity.

[/b]

Easymo's solution does not solve any of the Internet-related problems you're talking about, and it could exacerbate the impact of them on your enjoyment of the game.  I'm surprised that you haven't noticed this.  There are only two alternatives out there, in my mind, that don't penalize you for Internet conditions.  The first is to allow your bullets to damage friendly planes without a PNG penalty to yourself.  One downside to this, of course, is all the l337 h@><><0r two weekers who would turn AH into a massive friendly fire FFA.  The other downside is that you're shifting the Internet blame from yourself to the guy you're shooting down when it's entirely possible that it's not his fault.

The second alternative is to do no damage to the friendly plane or yourself.  The downside to this, as mentioned previously, is that it encourages unrealistic combat behavior... namely spray 'n pray sniping over shoulders and through friendlies to try to kill a badguy.  

I consider neither alternative preferable to the status quo.  Other alternatives... easymo's solution, killing guns, etc. do nothing to counter the sorts of things that lead to you killshootering yourself presently; they merely shift the consequences.

BUT.. yer tellin me 'no problem exists'

That's exactly what I'm saying.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Hangtime]

I'd hate to think that I'd lose my guns by tapping someone accidentally with .303s.

but, but, you never killshooter anybody!! If the other system.. which kills you DEAD is no problem for you... how could THIS be an issue?

...I know, I know.. goose, gander, kettle, pot,..

couldn't resist tho.

[AKSWulfe]

Here's THE solution to killshooter: Real time internet connections with a max of +/-5ms ping variance.

Everything else is just an alternative... that ain't no better than the system it's replacing.
-SW

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Hangtime
but, but, you never killshooter anybody!! If the other system.. which kills you DEAD is no problem for you... how could THIS be an issue?

[/B]

Perhaps you have failed to grasp the arguments I've presented.

I have not killshootered myself in a long time... as in died by killshooter.  I have certainly plinked people with a 20mm or .303, particularly when trying to clear a plane off of someone's dead six, or when I'm attacking a plane that's diving for a PT boat.  Those are what I'd call "calculated risks."  I'm willing to risk killshooter in those circumstances with the understanding that, should I die, it was entirely my fault for miscalculating.  It's nice to know in a situation like that that I'm not running up some tally that will reduce my lethality until the end of the tour.

Easymo's solution still isn't better than the status quo.

-- Todd/Leviathn