Author Topic: Who's given up on buffing? (Read 1868 times)

Sabre · « **Reply #30 on:** July 30, 2002, 03:07:42 PM »

I've made only two on-line drops of bombs since 1.10. I was waaaaayyyy off, but that's lack of practice. That's beside the point. What I want to know is, has anyone made a concerted effort to kill a zone's strat with heavy bombers? I believe that was part of the point behind the changes to bombers and bombing in 1.10. Buffs should be pretty effective against an area target like a field towns and strat facilities...if the bombardier has got the technique down.

Eskimo, I understand your frustration with the reduced effectiveness of the heavies on base capture, at least when targeting particular targets on particular bases. It's simply not a one-man show like it used to be. It sounds like the majority of bomber pilots still want to have the instantaneous and devastaing effect they use to have on bases. However, as I understand it, a pulk of bombers can still lay waste to a field town in one pass, IF the bombs are dropped within the parimeter of the town.

I'm more curious about the strat effect of heavy bombers. I'm curious if anyone has laid waste to some of the strat targets in a zone to see if base captures go any easier. The idea behind the changes to bombing, according to HiTech, was to make them more effective strategic tools and less effective tactical tools. The latter definitely appears to be true, but what about the former? How many bombers does it take to kill a city or ammo factory? Man for man, is it still easier to kill these strat targets with Jabos? And if you do kill them, do they have any decernable affect on the war in that zone? I don't know...that's why I'm asking.

Turbot · « **Reply #31 on:** July 30, 2002, 03:32:09 PM »

I have bombed strat targets and sometimes they even blow up when hit. The maps are a problem, HQs that cant be killed strats that are invulnerable, strats with AAA that shoot friendlies. etc etc etc.

I have found that you must do a few runs in the Training Arena to see where you are going wrong. In TA HiTech provides your with a second site to calibrate your calibration by - a green X that always shows where your bombs will hit. That way you know if you are aiming correctly before you even release eggs. I suggest if anyone is serious aboout learning to bomb go to TA for at least one run and practice calibrating till your bombsite agrees with the green X - until you can do that you are wasting your MA time.

Personally I find the bombers too much of a hassle to fool with. IAfter much practice I can consistently hit inside the box, but the novelty of it has worn off and it takes too long time to do for a small result. (I dispute that anyone can *really* tell what buffs are doing in any case, who can see the craters to know? )

For my money a single heavy 38 is much more productive than a number of B17's. though I still will up one every few days or so.

...perhaps if the fields had MANY MANY more buildings? I mean like a 5 fold increase, something carpet bombing would be useful for? Right now most of the bombs go to waste on open ground. (The towns at airfields are much too simple to kill with fighters, this was true before 1.10 - is there another reason for that?)

A fighter should not be able to do more % damage to a field than a bomber IMHO.

Virage · « **Reply #32 on:** July 30, 2002, 04:04:23 PM »

It takes alot of practice and relearning... and still is not a sure thing. No such thing as a casual bomber pilot anymore.

I have been successful of late using the following:

Must maintain constant speed.

when calibrating... pick a spot far in front of the plane and hold it for a 30 count. longer is definately more accurate. constant speed, 30 count, under wind will result in accuracy close to pre 1.10.

use salvo to get a good footprint, but you don't have to dump your whole payload at once.

single bombers will work under wind/14k layer. Over the 14k/wind layer it is best to use formations for the larger footprint.

under wind u can calibrate early. Over wind I zoom a forward view (gun or cockpit) to get the plane lined up with field, then do the calibration. this insures minimal course changes which hurt when dealing with the wind vector.

One pass is all (for me) so think ahead about your line to target.

a single Ju88 is nice for the level bomb run followed by dive bombing for a second pass. (ju88 divebomb site would be nice )

Innominate · « **Reply #33 on:** July 30, 2002, 04:32:51 PM »

Note: this is mostly cut n pasted from another less relavent thread.

The biggest problems facing buffs are bugs, and the lack of viable targets to bomb. Here is why I don't fly a bomber. Current targets aren't worth bombing, due to the huge amount of time it takes to set up a good bombrun. It takes at least 5-10mins of level flight for speed to be stable enough for an accurate drop. Thats long enough for a jabo to get all the way to the target.

First and formost, Strat targets except cities are better suited to precision bombing by jabos than they are carpet bombing.

Bugs affecting buffs,
1. Various formation bugs, bombers taking off backwards, inability for ar234 drones to take off with ratos. drones falling behind and exploding while flying straight and level.

2. Strat bugs,
On the small maps, bombing strat only does a max of 33% damage. Kill all of one countries strat, and theyll only drop to 66%. Throw in the fact that even without this, strat has no effect that you'd notice without watching it, and strat is worthless.

3. Damage bugs.
Sometimes all of the buffs take the same damage. Anyone who's flown a lot of buffs, or killed a lot, knows what I'm talking about. You blast the wing off one, the pilot bails, and the wing vanishes from the drone he is now in. Same thign on buff #3, sending all down at once. Or one of your buffs gets shot down, and you end up flying an apparently undamaged plane that seems to be invisibly leaking oil untill the engine dies.

Just checked, the bf110-G2, including it's cannons, is able to put out almost 10,000lb's worth of damage on pinpoint targets. It can do this far faster, and with far more flexibility than any bomber. How can any bomber POSSIBLY compete?

bozon · « **Reply #34 on:** July 30, 2002, 05:54:40 PM »

first, I'm not saying that the bomb thing is technicly working ok since I haven't done accurate tests with the last patch (did before). but it seems to work usually.

second, the things quoted below are statments being repeated in many buff threads, so I'm not refering to the specific post here, just the general statment.

Quote

The frustrating thing is, that there's no way to know what you've done wrong. How can you even learn if you don't know what caused you to miss?

do as several people suggested:
go to the TA or offline with the green dive bomb sight enabled and do your procedure.
if after calibration, the green X is not close to the center - your calibration is no good.
if the green X moves after calibration - your speed is not constant.
(do it over level terrain with the target alt the same as the land/sea under you so both sight would be calibrated for the same alt)

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For my money a single heavy 38 is much more productive than a number of B17's.

true. there's a good reason why bombers never made it past WWII. since then it's only fighter-bombers.
still, p-47 is not the best fighter here, nor the 202 or the hurri but people still fly them.
so fly a bomber only if you like to, or any odd reason you might have.

Quote

The alt of the area you intend to bomb, and the alt of the area you picked off the map has to be the same... otherwise you will get more near misses than hits.

Otherwise you have the bombsight calibrated for an object that may be lower or higher than your intended "area"... which means the bombs will fall shorter or longer.

if you mean this with respect to the use of the CCIP sight in the TA, you are right.
if you mean in the general case, it's not true. all the calibration process does, is calculate your ground speed. For this you need to know how high are you above the calibration point. it has nothing to do with the target. only after you have your ground speed you need to take into account the alt of the plane and the target.

as for wind -
the calibration measures your ground speed. this means the wind is already taken into account (I dont know how the bomb's drag is modeled so I can't tell how this affects the bombs).
BUT, any slight change in course in a wind layer will result in a much greater error since you'll change your ground speed (besides lossing a few mph to the manuver).

Bozon

bozon · « **Reply #35 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:01:14 PM »

and another thing.
to those who say bomber can't be used to flaten a field and jabo's can:

how many jabos you nead to kill all the FH in a field? including all those that will miss the drop?
now put all of them in lancs/B17 assuming they have minimal skills, and send them to carpet bomb the field.

would be interesting to see the result.

Bozon

Turbot · « **Reply #36 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:01:34 PM »

"there's a good reason why bombers never made it past WWII. since then it's only fighter-bombers."

Well I don't know, we Americans do so love our B-52's and use them quite regularly

Turbot · « **Reply #37 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:04:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by bozon
and another thing.
to those who say bomber can't be used to flaten a field and jabo's can:

how many jabos you nead to kill all the FH in a field? including all those that will miss the drop?
now put all of them in lancs/B17 assuming they have minimal skills, and send them to carpet bomb the field.

would be interesting to see the result.

Bozon

A single 110 with cannons alone can do a couple of hangars.

Innominate · « **Reply #38 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:11:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by bozon

true. there's a good reason why bombers never made it past WWII. since then it's only fighter-bombers.

what?
The b-1, b-2, and b-52 never made it past ww2?

There are a few reasons why our jabos are so good, and bombers so bad. First, we have late war jabos which could carry significant bombloads. Second, bombers had extremly long range, which no jabo could match. Bombers were used to flatten large areas, where jabos were used for lighter attacks and air support.

We have nothing that a carpetbombing pass will hurt. We have nothing that requires long range flights. We have jabos whos guns alone are able to put out the same damage as several thousand lb's of bombs.

Quote

Originally posted by Turbot

A single 110 with cannons alone can do a couple of hangars.

110 with 500kg bombs, and 50kg bombs can put out about 9800lbs worth of damage.

Pollock · « **Reply #39 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:32:03 PM »

One of these days I will set my saitek for the bombing and learn it. I bet with the newer arena coming you will see more dedicated bomber pilots. Thats what brought me to AH almost 3 years ago. I wonder if Sunchaser still frequents the boards, there was a die hard goon and bomber pilot for ya! although he refused to fly the lanc...

MAD BOMBERS ARE YOU LISTENING

PvtPyls · « **Reply #40 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:49:21 PM »

this may sound like a moronic idea, but how about a map that would force the use of bombers. Maybe something where all three teams start fairly seperated from each other. I know it would have to be pretty far but its just an idea

Fatty · « **Reply #41 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:53:11 PM »

As someone that never flew bombers since about 1.03 (except occasional IL2 as base defense), I still don't fly bombers a lot but probably more this tour than 1.03-1.09. I like the changes a lot (and I still suck at them).

So put me down as one who has started buffing since the changes.

gatso · « **Reply #42 on:** July 30, 2002, 07:57:24 PM »

This tour I have mostly floen fighter sorties *this has nothing to do with the new bomber stuff* I like bombers. It should only take 1 or 2 decent (un molested) sorties to figure the buffs out.

---It really isn't that hard.---

Buffs are fun and have found them to be effective *if* you get 2 or 3 squaddies/friendlies to hit the same target in buffs at the same time. THe days of a single lanc dropping all the FH at a small base are not over... It just takes practise and a bit more time.

Gatso

akkobek · « **Reply #43 on:** July 30, 2002, 08:46:22 PM »

To make a long story short. So far it's a waste of time for me, try and hit a hanger miss by half a field.
For me until my ability or the game changes i'm in heavy fighters
on base attack missions.

P.S yes i did practice

Shiva · « **Reply #44 on:** July 30, 2002, 09:54:02 PM »

Quote

Bugs affecting buffs,
1. Various formation bugs, bombers taking off backwards, inability for ar234 drones to take off with ratos. drones falling behind and exploding while flying straight and level.

The problem with the Ar-234 and RATO units is simple to address. The problem is in the way that drone takeoffs and ordnance use is handled.

1) When you take off with drones, the drones sit stationary off the end of the runway until you're about 1/3 of the way down the runway, then start rolling.

2) Whenever you deploy ordnance, your drones do, too.

What this means is that, when you launch with an Ar-234 formation and immediately hit the RATO switch, the drones will light off their RATOs, too, and use up half their thrust before the drones start moving.

The solution I've found is to immediately jump to external view -- either F3 or F5 -- and watch behind me on the runway for the drones to start moving. Once the drones are rolling, then I hit the RATO switch, and all the drones do as well -- but because they're rolling, the RATO thrust isn't wasted, and they take off normally.