War on Drugs

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe

A couple glasses of water, put her in a tub and cover her in ice. That'll atleast keep her alive until an ambulance gets there. Signs to look for, no sweat, clamy skin, dry mouth, eyes bouncing all over the place, unable to keep a steady train of thought. This would of resulted in a saved life, not a death. Drugs are here, they are a HUGE black market business in the US. What makes more sense to you, telling kids not to do it... or telling them not to do it, but at the same time telling them how they can prevent their best friend from dying if they were to do it?

-SW [/B]

Wolfe, now THAT convinces me Ecstacy is harmless. Maybe we should hire you to dispense the drug and explain to the kids just how harmless it is- but just in case ya might wanna pick up a couple of dozen bags of ice on your way to the party- and make sure someone writes down the number for 911 just in case someone ODs.

You're right, though, alcohol abuse is a more serious problem than drug abuse is, and the majority of derelects are alcoholics. I guess the arguement that since we already have alcohol we might as well legalize it all makes sense to some of you, but I wonder why we need to add to our sociatial woes by legalizing drugs- in the intrests of fairness???

Wolfie, What exactly is your solution to our drug problem in America? You mentioned education, but we already do that. Please, do you think narcotics should be legalized or not? I'd scroll back to find a clue what your stances are, but I'm too much of a dumb bellybutton to figure it out.

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Wolfe, now THAT convinces me Ecstacy is harmless. Maybe we should hire you to dispense the drug and explain to the kids just how harmless it is- but just in case ya might wanna pick up a couple of dozen bags of ice on your way to the party- and make sure someone writes down the number for 911 just in case someone ODs.

I swear, are you trolling, or just that stupid?

Maybe I should put it in bold this time?

I never said they were harmless, you are simply pulling stuff out of your bellybutton because I said that there are ways to prevent people from dying on drugs.

"You're right, though, alcohol abuse is a more serious problem than drug abuse is, and the majority of derelects are alcoholics. I guess the arguement that since we already have alcohol we might as well legalize it all makes sense to some of you, but I wonder why we need to add to our sociatial woes by legalizing drugs- in the intrests of fairness???"

Did I say legalize all drugs? No, only cannabis. But a new policy needs to be put into effect, so we can address the drug problem with open minds and not look at drug users as aliens, but as people who need help. As is, toss 'em in jail and that'll fix 'em right up!

Wolfie, What exactly is your solution to our drug problem in America? You mentioned education, but we already do that. Please, do you think narcotics should be legalized or not? I'd scroll back to find a clue what your stances are, but I'm too much of a dumb bellybutton to figure it out.

The only "education" offered is DARE... and if you pay attention in those classes, it's actually a brain washing propoganda filled tirade of people who had someone die because they took drugs.

Some real education would be needed... but I digress, any time someone who runs for office attempts to address the current "War on Drugs" and it's policies, they are quickly shunned and ignored.

It's blatant hypocrisy by the American people. They want drugs to go away, and the drug problem, but any time someone proposes a change they are either ignored or not voted into office because of their new views.


Hortlund-
"No SW, that is generally not how you OD. 90% of all ODs are old drug users who have been off drugs for a while, and then take a dose of the size they used to take. "

I know, but a first time user will OD on these hard drugs because their body isn't acclimated to the amount of chemicals being induced into the body. If you take 2 lines of coke your first time, damn right you will OD and prolly die.

"And that girl would be alive now had she decided to just say no. But because of people like you, people who claim drugs are harmless or people who claim that alcohol is much more dangerous..because of people like you, people like her will just keep on trying, some will die, some will become drug addicts, some might walk away from it."

And for diddlying toejam's sakes. Tell me where, just one place, I said drugs are harmless..... do it now, or shut the f*ck up. I never said drugs were harmless. Not once, you and Elfenwolf are making this up.

I don't advocate drug use, I advocate safe use. If someone's doing it, I didn't give it to them... I am, however, going to tell them not to do that second pill, or that third line, or that 5th shot in the vein.

So give it a f'in rest. No where do I advocate use of hard drugs. The only drug I advocate is marijuana, and compared to alcohol, it IS harmless.
-SW

[midnight Target]

mmmmkay?

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe


Did I say legalize all drugs? No, only cannabis.


So give it a f'in rest. No where do I advocate use of hard drugs. The only drug I advocate is marijuana, and compared to alcohol, it IS harmless.
-SW [/B]

Wolfe, you stated your own experiences with Ecstacy had absolutely no detremental effect on you at all. You further cited an example of a "brilliant" user of Shrooms, acid and peyote, one Aldous Huxley, as an example of a properly functioning drug addict. Now I realize you didn't actually state these substances were harmless, but you damn sure implied they were especially concerning your own use of Ecstacy.  

I have only one question for you, Wolfe. If the only substance you advocate legalizing is cannabis, then why did you link cannabis usage to peyote, acid, shrooms and Ecstacy? Why did you call marijuana a drug at all  if you feel it's so harmless? Oh, and what "drug" did YOU first use? Pot- or Ecstacy?

Personally I believe with the accessment that the "war on drugs" has been less than stellar, as has been our "war on poverty, war on illiteracy" and "war on teenage pregnancy." I agree with you we need a better tac- but seriously, capitulation in the face of crooked cops, pushers, smugglers or whatever will make the situation much worse than it is presently.  And if you feel strongly that marijuana should be a personal choice then I suggest you vote your concience. I'll vote mine.

[AKSWulfe]

Wolfe, you stated your own experiences with Ecstacy had absolutely no detremental effect on you at all. You further cited an example of a "brilliant" user of Shrooms, acid and peyote, one Aldous Huxley, as an example of a properly functioning drug addict. Now I realize you didn't actually state these substances were harmless, but you damn sure implied they were especially concerning your own use of Ecstacy.

Well, the truth of the matter is- peyote and shrooms are neither deadly nor harmful. They WILL put you on another planet if you OD on them, but eventually you'll come down. They are harmful if you are let out into public under the influence.

Did I imply that ecstasy is harmless, or did I imply that it wasn't always deadly? There's a difference... has it harmed me? Well, it did in the short term. I was in an awful bout of depression for a while there, and... well basically if I quit doing the drug because of what it was doing to me... it's obvious it's harmful. It doesn't have to be DEADLY though, and that's what I'm trying to convey here. You know just as well as I do, that people will do drugs no matter what you tell them. I'd rather it not be their last experience on this planet.

I have only one question for you, Wolfe. If the only substance you advocate legalizing is cannabis, then why did you link cannabis usage to peyote, acid, shrooms and Ecstacy? Why did you call marijuana a drug at all  if you feel it's so harmless? Oh, and what "drug" did YOU first use? Pot- or Ecstacy?

I never linked cannabis usage to peyote, acid, shrooms or ecstasy, you did. Marijuana is a drug. Aspirin is a drug. Anotesten is a drug. Nyquil is a drug. Why do you think they are sold in drug stores? I never made the distinction between illicit and licit drugs.
As far as what did I do first.... alcohol. So if you wanna start with the gateway drug BS, you got something already legal to blame.

Personally I believe with the accessment that the "war on drugs" has been less than stellar, as has been our "war on poverty, war on illiteracy" and "war on teenage pregnancy." I agree with you we need a better tac- but seriously, capitulation in the face of crooked cops, pushers, smugglers or whatever will make the situation much worse than it is presently.  And if you feel strongly that marijuana should be a personal choice then I suggest you vote your concience. I'll vote mine.

I never said, give up. I never said just stop the "war on drugs". I have, however, repeatedly stated that the current "war on drugs" is an abysmal failure. The current policies that are being enforced simply do not work. As is, despite 40-60% of drugs being siezed and a million or so druggies/dealers being busted... the drug world is still the most lucrative financial market in the US. Where else could you make a couple thousand a day by only saying, "hey, you lookin' for somein'?"

The fact is, people who are in the right place to make the changes... or atleast got their chance to be in the right place, immediately get shot down for making any suggestions in regards to the war on drugs. A change is what is needed, the current one just isn't effective at all.

And just to be clear, I do not advocate using drugs. But if someone is doing them, I want to be the person that keeps 'em from ODing or keeps 'em from dying- and I'd expect other people to want to do that too.
-SW

[Wlfgng]

legalize pot.  

it's a joke that it isn't already.

either that or make coffee, cigarettes and booze illegal.
and we all know how THAT went !


*edit* spelling

[Elfenwolf]

Wulfe, OK, thanks for tying yourself down. For a while there you were twitchier than a tweaker waiting for the mailman on welfare check day. So you advocate the legalization of marijuana for personal consumption, right? OK, then how much is allowable for personal consumption? An ounce? LOL Dude, an ounce is a lot of pot, even for daily smokers. But for arguement's sake then let's say an ounce or less is considered to be for personal use. (California law)

Now you agree with me that driving under the influence of alcohol, pot or ANY consciousness altering substance is a bad idea, right? So therefore we can assume you keep an ounce or less of pot in your house for your own personal consumption AT HOME. This being the case, then what's your problem??? In California I hardly doubt law enforcement will break down your door to confiscate your dope, but even if they did all they could do is issue you an infraction ticket to appear in court for posession of less than an ounce. Uh... as far as I know this doesn't happen often.

OK, so you agree the prohibition for personal use has been relaxed, right? And you ALSO agree that you have basically no fear of the police busting down your door to bust you for personal posession of less than an ounce of pot, right? OK, this being your reality as a pot user, then what is your problem? Buy your bag of pot, sit at home and smoke your brains out. I don't care, the cops are too busy to care so what's your point? That you are considered a criminal or is it that you have to hide your pot smoking from your kids just like you used to have to hide your pot smoking from your parents?

[keeler]

Gee what a long Post a big to all the open minded AHers

 My hero

AKSWulfe
 
 

I agree with you on many points I my self just put down the Herb cause of drug testing , which i have no problem with since my job now involves the saftey of others ,
I have smoked for about 5 years at least a joint a day

I should be in prison for my bad morals

ROLF

What a joke

Anyhows Ive done it all X shroom acid , I never thought about robbing or stealing for anything i only did these durgs in College but i have enjoyed pot for a long time


SC-Sp00k you are a closed minded person like the christians that try to teach Jesus to Muslums or other religous people come on. I have no respect for people that try to impose there views on others

Anyone want to know the truth READ ON


The drug war is about other people wanting to impose there belives or morals on others. Money grapping Politicians and Religion


Guess im going to hell, and jail for not going along with the RIGHT side


So keep telling yourselfs your right and were wrong, good people go to heaven and bad to hell

SC-Sp00k hope to see you in the sky soon Pack your chute !!!!

[SC-Sp00k]

Keeler I hope you arent in the sky at the same time I am.  Im sure that there wont be enough room for both of us. You know. Me and your head and all.

Thankfully, the deeply entrenched need and dependance upon my obtaining your respect and my abject utter and despairing failure to retain so much as a nano ounce of it, will not keep me up at night with the cold sweaty shakes.

It would appear that your involvement in this thread consists of a paranoid delusionary fear entrenched within your pubescent Sunday School subconscious and the very mention of anti-Drug campaigners brings visions of wicked black and white nuns with switch sticks in hand and the good book in the other.

Im not sure what dark twisted corner of your mind gave phoenix like birth to the religious diatribe, nor its purpose in this thread, but I do agree with you on one thing.

i have enjoyed pot for a long time

Judging from your post. I cant argue with that!

Im not sure what side of this debate you think you are helping my friend, but I assure you.  I appreciate the assistance, you are giving mine.

[SC-Sp00k]

To those not suffering a drug induced psychosis, its once more into the breach...

The biggest arguement I can see against the liberalisation of Cannabis and allowing legislation granting it public access to the masses is that it will be the catalyst for much more to follow.

SW is correct when he states that light Cannabis use will not cause overwhelming harmful effects to the majority.  I agree with statements such as these.

I agree that Tobacco and Alcohol are substances that are as, if not more, dangerous to a persons health.  What I do not excuse is using either of them as an arguement to legalised Cannabis use.

Currently in Australia an idea (and if I remember correctly, it started in one of those "blond blue eyed" countries as well) there is a push for the legalisation of Heroin injection rooms.  

Areas set aside for addicts to inject under supervision. Areas nominate for these proposed sites are generally in the heart of Commercial Shopping centres and the like where dealers prey and the users congregate.    Great opposition stands in their way, yet they continually chip away and refuse to go away.  A couple of Church groups support these establishments. Social Aid agencies are divided over them and the general public is equally seperated over the issues. Another drug issue of equally important and dangerous discussion with the potential to cause great harm in the guise of the greater good.

I have heard Magistrates call for the legalisation of Heroin and it identified as a drug as socially acceptable as Marijuana.  The problem appears to be its far reaching scope, the loss of control and the financial burden its prosecution, management and monitoring places upon the system.

Marijuana in my opinion is a door.  Despite whatever I think of it and its dangers which many like SW can refute with counter medical opinion,  once you allow the legalisation of Marijuana you allow the next drug a chance to have its day.   Heroin will be next and we can start a thread on how good it was the the Opium heads of the Chinese dynasties and it never did them any harm.

Meth-Amphetamines which in my opinion is the greatest threat of all to our youth culture due to its availabilty, undercuts Heroin and currently is the most prolific danger for our youth.  Where the Big "H" was once the bad boy on the block.  Changing public opinion and the ability of the Drug Community to recognise and adapt to a more product much easier to produce with less risk to themselves, presents a problem that allows Meth-Amphets to be every bit as available as Cannabis is today.  Quite a tidy business for the Hells Angels and similar freedom loving groups throughout the world.

Here is another side of the arguement tho. A little more bizarre and harder to swallow than all those before it. But one I believe and one you will have trouble with.

Picture this. The Rent a Crowd mobs that we see at Demonstrations causing trouble. The Socialist underground papers that we often hear about but rarely see, less accosted on a street corner or present on a university campus. The every numerous Internet sites in support of Drug Legislation with anti-Government tirades and free the people slogans....are...

funded by organisations in the world which actively support and finance subversive Anti-Government issues, programs and campaigns.  The Same groups that you now associate with Terrorism. Socialist Groups such as the Legalisation of Cannabis Movements are specifically target by such Subversive groups who seek a voice in an area conducive to their cause by its very nature. Where working to create change is minimal as the desire for change already exists.  Where the people themselves wait to hear a voice which supports their own imagined wants and where the possibility of discovery in such a group is scarce as they blend in with a common theme that serves a much greater purpose to those with a will and a want to use it.

Fact or fiction?  Well its fact but you may never believe it to be anything other than fiction.

Another Fact.. I've no evidence to present to you to prove my belief.  You can argue with me quite easily on the subject as I cannot counter argue.  But then, they know that to.  Sounds Paranoid doesnt it

Now Im not saying that they are soley responsible or even a major player in the movement to legalise Cannabis or any other illegal substance. They dont have to be. Small deeds accomplish Large tasks in these communities.  I am saying that they are there, playing their part covertly, alongside you.

Puts a different spin on it if you think your inadvertently working alongside a Terrorist organisation and unconsciously assisting them in its cause eh?  Most will not care tho. Some may even ignorantly support such a proposal.  Until the Group achieves a purpose, wins a minor victory and the friend at your shoulder is now the devil at your door.

I dont believe for a moment that having said that you will put down your smoko, or that you believe any small fraction of what I have said. It matters little.

Unfortunately those doors to the harder drugs will opened. Give up the fight against the lesser drugs and the harder drugs become the lesser drugs as we move up the line.  There will always be someone argueing for de-legislation. Always someone holding a banner in support of a free'er better world regardless of cost.

Not so many willing to fight to ensure you have it.

[Maniac]

Hi spook, good post, i respect all your oppinions (sp?). but this :

granting it public access to the masses

Its to late, its everywhere, its really really easy to get anhold of... or grow yourself even...

[-dead-]

Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Dead, what's your point? Many people of that era became addicted to LEGAL Cocaine at the time. Or opium, or whatever. Basil Rathborne, for instance. So what's the lesson? That we began to realize just how addictive Cocaine is and we banned its use? We also banned the recreational use of Meth, Opium, PCP, LSD and Estacy, just to name a few. Or are you trying to make the point that the good Doctor was somehow inspired to greatness  through his drug addictions? Sorry, but I think he achieved greatness in spite of his drug addictions.

Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Dead If you're making the point that people can function as drug addicts provided they have access to pure and plentiful drugs then I agree, depending on the drug. My reservations are that I don't wish my Government involved in the recreational drug disbursement business.
A 17 year old girl in the Sacramento area died of an Ecstacy overdose a couple of days ago. I wonder what the civil liability would have been had she acquired the drugs through a Government-sponsored drug disbursement program?

Sheesh, Elfenwolf - you asked for an example of someone doing something good while on hard drugs, I gave ya one. Now you want to know what the point is? How on Earth should I know what the point is!?! Honestly, there's no pleasing some people!
Still, I forgive ya, because getting 2 posts for the price of 1 out of His Royal Highness, the Troll King kinda made my day.

[AKSWulfe]

Elfenwolf- you first.

What do I consider a "personal" amount? An ounce- well that's actually quite a good amount of marijuana. Now, if you mean personal use for a day or for a week- an ounce is way too much. Over the period of a month- that's about right. If you buy it in bulk (cheaper in more quantity for a reduction in price), then you could have a "personal" amount that will last you for up to 6 months.. if you are so inclined. It can keep, just buy that lil' food sealer that they have on those informercials at 3 in the morning. I forget what it's called, but it sucks all the air out and seals a bag. Throw that in the freezer and that stuff will last you a long time.

So you get into a big problem of how much is personal use when it could vary. If someone has 3 ounces, and they smoke that in 3 days- yeah that's pretty damn extreme.

But then you look at people who drink. I'm not using this to justify marijuana use or anything, but to give a comparison.

There's varying strengths of alcohol- from the toejamtiest of beers (~2.x% alcohol) to the strongest of liqours (everclear- 190 something). Most liqours come in large bottles (well the STRONG ones.. you can get vodka and other less strong drinks in the range of 60-80 proof in single serving sizes up to a gallon), while beers come in anywhere from a 6 pack to a 32 case. Then there's also the 22s, 32s(I think), and 40s. Would you consider 3 40s "personal" use? That would be about equivelant to a little less than a half ounce in weed. You are drinking 3 40s with the intent of getting beligerently f'ed up. You will smoke that lil' less than a half ounce in a day with the intent of getting extremely stoned. This is just for comparison purposes. So personal use is really subjective and depends in how much you want to save in weight- just the same as it is with alcohol. If I just want to go home and drink to get myself a nice buzz, I'll buy myself a 6pack. If I want to get completely toejamfaced, I'll buy a case of 24... won't finish it all, but I'll be completely belligerent. Just the same as if I bought a half ounce of weed with the intent of getting extremely stoned. At some point, however, smoking it is doing nothing more than just filling your lungs with garbage. You can only get so high, so then you just start wasting weed at that point.

I also agree that driving under the influence of anything is irresponsible and shouldn't be done. You'll get no argument from me there. Doing anything that could have repercussions on yourself or another person(s) while you are under the influence is simply wrong and should not be done. People still do it, hence drunk driving accidents. But they get super f'ed in fines and jail time for being stupid.

But, how would you like it if you could only drink in your own home. I don't mean to say, open up weed bars, but why should I have to worry about possibly getting jail time because I'm getting high in my own home while someone who is getting drunk can happily do it without no worries. The latter can (and does) result in domestic/spousal abuse and other problems which can be viewed every saturday night on Cops. Does the former have crime associated with it? Sure, but mostly because smoking weed is currently a criminal activity which skews the stats.

It's like going back 80 years to prohibition of alcohol. A lot more people drank, and were being picked up for doing it, and then there was a huge uproar because of it. Now people can freely drink, and that is a cause of many of societies problems. Not all, but alcohol can definitely be linked to a LOT of arrests, deaths (car accidents, arguments turning into gun fights, etc).. but someone who smokes weed has to constantly watch his back.

I just want it to be legal so that if I'm sitting on my back porch, I can light up a joint and not have to worry about a cop rolling up and putting me in hand cuffs.

Sp00k- whatever those organizations do is their own thing. I neither support nor subscribe to them. I do my own thing.

The problem with someone like me trying to get marijuana legalized is that there are people like you who will associate me with some nutball organization or a bunch of hippies. I am no different than you in terms of a functioning person in society. I don't cause trouble, I don't buy my weed from drug houses or somewhere shady, I know where it's coming from.

But the thing is, you expect me to stop smoking weed because I may or may not be supporting terrorists... while at the same time you ignore the fact that by keeping marijuana illicit and thus banned, the government is actually allowing terrorists and other crime syndicates to use marijuana as an avenue to gain profits or other benefits. You can't stop people from smoking weed, despite the scare tactics employed and the asinine attempt of associating it with terrorists. Yeah, I buy weed... but face it, it's no more detrimental to society if it were legalized than what is currently out there. Whether it be alcohol, pain killers, prescription drugs (mood enhancers), or any of the other legalized drugs that are currently the source of addiction for MILLIONS of people. The fact that you take what could be a very lucrative form of revenue for the government and place it into sheisty criminal's hands and then try to play the blame game (you support terrorists, you kill babies, you'll beat up your parents for a dub sack) just shows the blatant ignorance and utter hypocrisy of people who simply don't understand the benefits of making it legal.

And to say it could open up doors to harder drugs is just another example of utter hypocrisy. If anything, what opened up the door for people trying to get marijuana legalized (despite the fact that it was made criminal based on lies and misconceptions in the 30s, go watch the movie reefer madness- THAT's so full of BS, yet it's why it's illegal right now) was that we have equally as damaging and detrimental drugs that are currently legal. Alcohol and cigarettes. Then, you look around today.

What's the biggest money making market today? Not alcohol, not tobacco, not even tennis shoes... pharmacueticals. They can push out drugs faster than you can take a dump after drinking 2 gallons of ex-lax, and the side effects... WHEW! Chronic diarhea, nausia, headaches, bowel aches, indigestion, clamy skin, dry mouth, dry eyes, hell you name it, and you can have it as a side effect.

A society where people can freely acquire these drugs, whether they need them or not, and people love 'em... but marijuana? That's just immoral and evil!

It's perfectly acceptable to dope your kid up on ritalin, prozac, whatever the synthetic drug of the day is- which may be gone tommorrow because of new found horribly detrimental side effects- but a naturally occuring plant that will get you high for 2-4 hours on your own time and may or may not give you the same lung cancer as cigarettes is shunned and the people who do it are looked upon as criminals.

So in conclusion, if I got this straight... I can take as much prozac, xanax, ritalin, pain killers, alcohol and/or smoke as many cigarettes as I want... but marijuana is the evil one?

Drug addiction? toejam man, it exists around cubicle in every office building in the US... and that's without the illicit drugs.
-SW

[Wlfgng]

spook.. how is marijuana a 'door' when alcohol isn't.
you say alcohol is probably  more dangerous than marijuana but it isn't a 'door'.

how do you figure ?

[N1kPaz]

AKS....great post man. right now i am nursing a hang over because i drank alcohol last night after getting dissed by my favorite female co-worker...now...i certainly wish pot were legal, then i could probably have afforded to spring for a sack and been able to drown my sorrows without all the miserable side effects of alcohol consumption.

Alcohol is so obviously more dangerous and harmful than marijuana, that they should either make it illegal or legalize pot.

Btw---when is the last time you heard of a person getting stoned and beating someone, or running over a pedestrian...sure it might occasionally happen, but lets face it...pot simply does not impair your ability as much as alcohol. that is a fact. dont believe me....fly stoned...then fly drunk...i bet you get more kills high than drunk.


anyway...im blabbering so i will go