War on Drugs

[AKSWulfe]

Again, im not telling you you cant do anything. You make up your own mind there. Much the same as any Smoker or Drinker. At present Cannabis is against the law. You decide whether you obey it or not. Entirely your decision at the end of the day. Your risks are your own.

True, so how is it any different than if instead of my bellybutton getting well over $2,000 in fines and court costs, 8 hours in lock down, 2 court appearences (arraignment and trial), a $300 Alcohol Safety Action Program class, and losing my license, I just get to smoke it as I wish in the confines of my own property?

Aside from me getting royally screwed, there is no difference between it being legal or illegal in this sense.

No arguement there either. A little open to interpretation tho. I read that and believe it actually supports my arguement

It supports what? That it should be illegal because it's a health risk? Seriously Sp00k, you called me out on living on a different planet. Where is your head at? Every day is a health risk, you can sit inside your own home's safety and hope you don't die... or you can enjoy yourself and have fun doing things that you enjoy. In my case, I enjoy smoking a joint with some friends at the end of the day... on what grounds do you believe that should be illegal?

I openly invite you to present your facts for discussion. I shall enjoy it

I just did present some facts. You want some other facts? Alcohol destroys your liver, kidney, stomach, skin, brain and bladder. Marijuana temporarily thickens the brain's cell walls and you also run the risk of lung cancer. Aside from the brain's cell walls (which, btw, only impairs you under the influence), you can just as easily get lung cancer from sucking in bus exhaust fumes or lighting up a cigarette. It's your choice how you get lung cancer, personally I'd prefer a high that will last a little while.

Cannabis (includes Marijuana, THC, Hashish and Hash Oil) Effects of Overdose: Anxiety, paranoia, loss of concentration, slower moevements, time distortion.

Uh.... that's dangerous?

LOL. No. Thats good for you.  SW, What do you think?

What do I think? Well amongst that list of potential effects of an overdose I don't see coma or death.

Never have I said, "Cannabis is more dangerous than Alcohol". Never have I advocated Alcohol or Tobacco and presented any arguement that they are a lesser or greater evil than Marijuana. Its very simple to understand my arguement....

2 Wrongs dont make a Dope plant.

No, you didn't say it outright. You implied it with the following reply(last sentence) to what I said.(first paragraph)

"However, the purpose of comparing wacky tobacky to alcohol and cigarettes/cigars is to refute the argument that marijuana is more damaging than either of those two- it ain't.

In your humble opinion. I share a completely different humble opinion.."

But what I'm getting at isn't that because they are both damaging they should both be legal.. indeed it isn't... I'm trying to point out the fact that if you drink a beer, or smoke a cigarette, then who the hell are you to tell me that smoking marijuana should remain illegal? Because you don't like it? Because you don't do it? Neither of those? Because it's bad for you? I'll refer you to what I've been saying all along- a whole lot of things you do/can do legally are bad for you. What reason do you have for marijuana to remain illegal?

Facts vs Facts. Experts vs Experts. Who do we believe? Essentially tho, what you just posted above, supports everthing I have been saying.  We apparently agree

Okay, I've presented facts. You've presented... well nothing but "I won't believe you". I've presented experts, again, this is a one way street here. You can begin to argue I don't have a point when you actually bring something to this argument other than, "I have 13 years of stories"... cuz it just don't work that way, you were prolly dealing with someone who smoked a bowl of marijuana... with PCP sprinkled on top. And it ain't the weed that made those people crazy..

I'm not telling you not to do anything. I'm telling you WHY you shouldnt. Its all overtime for me and no skin off my nose.


Sounds like the Paranoia kicking in.

I know that stepping out front of the number 9 bus is bad for me also. I CHOOSE not to do it for health reasons.

Of course it's paranoia... I mean, I sit at home all day with a glock tightly gripped between my ghostly white knuckles in preperation for the day that the aliens come back to steal my mojo... and weed. Or could it be that every day presents you with a new problem, and that problem could very well be death. When you die, do you want to know you experienced a lot of things and had fun... or do you want to know that you were an uptight salamander that told everyone else who to live their lives based on some moral high ground you took? I'm not implying you are a tight bellybutton salamander, but nevertheless, I don't want to die and not have had fun in life. And yes, like I've been saying, smoking a joint and relaxing with friends, or just playing video games is fun.

Lets all light up a cone and shove needles in our arms.

I agree with the first part, but I hate needles. Sorry, despite what you may think I do/am doing/am under the influence of... I'm not a crack head, a heroin addict, a coker, or any other hard core synthetic (or otherwise natural but much harder) druggie. I drink beer, and smoke a lil weed here and there. But you seem hell bent on making it out like I'm a hardened criminal, well atleast you support a system that makes it that way.

Firstly, whilst biased toward your own arguement, most of your reasoning is sensible and well constructed. I dont think your spacey when you post, despite whatever I think of your reasoning.

I'm very biased towards my own argument, of course. When you educate yourself (and I'm not talking about what you hear or what people tell you, I'm talking about going out on your own and researching this stuff like a scientist would), then you'd find it pretty hard to swallow the current laws and "War on Drugs" as the correct way to do things.

Secondly, there are a vast many laws, I do not agree with and would champion the cause of change at the first opportunity. The legalisation of Cannabis however isnt one of them.

I'd still like to hear ONE good reason as to why you don't think cannabis should be legalized. The benefits it would provide would be astounding. It can be used as a pharmaceutical drug for patients under going chemo or otherwise very painful procedures/operations. Hemp can be derived from it, a much cheaper and studier resource than cotton. And it'll mellow out a lot of the amazinhunk salamanders I deal with everyday. You're a police officer, I'm a PC hardware technician. We both got one thing in common: We deal with irate amazinhunks all day. You get the benefit of locking their bellybutton up, I get the benefit of saying "Yes SIR! Right away!"

Thirdly, imho, some of those Rehab centres are run by greater Whacko's than the people who attend them for treatment. As for the information, they disseminate.  Some of its good. Some of its bad.  They have their own agendas and biased opinions like anyone else.

Well ranging from the government to rehab encompasses a lot more than just those two I named. I took the information that agreed with each other from various sources as the truth, I took the information that was so off the wall and debunked by other sources as false. It's pretty easy to get the truth when you are looking for it.

"Your drawing a line in the sand between Mental dependancy and addiction and telling me the marginal difference makes it alright?"

This is from a previous post, but I missed it... There's a HUGE difference between mental dependancy and addiction. Well actually, it's not dependancy either... it's a habitual drug. Kind of like Aces High, or any other video game, you play it habitually. You don't get addicted to it, you don't NEED it to get by. You don't have to have it, otherwise your body will go into uncontrollable convulsions.

If you don't have it, you'll be mighty pissed off "damn, no weed" or you'll just carry on and know that on some point in the near future it will cross your path again.

Unlike other drugs which when you get addicted to, you can NOT get off of because your body and mind NEEDS this drug to continue working.

So basically, I've presented my case and despite how opinionated you might believe it is, that's the real deal.

I would like to now see why you don't believe marijuana should be legalized. And I don't want opinions, because that's not what I have presented you with.
-SW

[SC-Sp00k]

I'll have to do battle with your "facts" tommorrow SW. Tonight I have to pretty myself up to go "legally" drinking and smoke my "legally" consumable cigarettes.

Then we can do battle over the "Why" question. These posts are getting far to long. Cheers.

[koala]

Ever hear of Al Capone?  Prohibition?

What about the Mafia in general?

The Columbian Cartel?

Why do you think all of these crime organizations exist?  Do you know how long they've been around?  Do you believe they're ever going to go away with our current set of laws?

Maybe the law enforcement officials here can "educate" us on all of this as well

[Karnak]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k:
Ever hear about the doctor who save his money for decades to buy a yacht? Finally got it and less than a year later the Coast Guard found a joint in the cabin of one of his crew members. Boom! His decades of work were undone as the cops confiscated the yacht under the accusation that it was being used in drug trafficing. Innocent until proven guilty? No siree, not here. The doctor wasn't being jailed, so no problem about not having a trial. What, the doctor wants his boat, or at least the value of the boat, back? Prove your innocence is the system here. Not provide reasonable doubt. PROVE your innocence.

The bonehead got what he deserves. The "poor" Doctor? LOL who saves for years for his little boat is a member of our society in a position of trust. His level of accountability is higher than average Jo-Smo. (Not that we ever see these miscreants held accountable to often  ) He knew the rules. His boat goes to fighting the war. Its called Proceeds of Crime in this Country. Imho, it should be enforced far more strongly.

So you're saying that a person is capable of know everything that happens on their property?  Not only are they capable of doing so, but they must at all times be so aware or have the Government yank it away?

This guy lost a multi-hundred thousand dollar yacht because one of his crewmen (not him and unknown to him) had a small ammount of marijuana for personal use.  You truely believe that justice was served by taking away this doctor's yacht?

If that is so you're off your bleeding rocker.  That passes so far beyond the tolerances of anything that can be called a free society.  That punishment in no way can be justified by his "crime".


BTW, I was speaking about the USA, not Australia.  In the US the dealer crime far, far outshines the user crime.  Australia's gun laws would probably switch that around.

As to the Black Americans, well, studies have repeatedly shown that they use less drugs than White Americans, yet are arrested far, far more often for it.  Studies have also repeatedly shown that Black Americans get longer sentences than White Americans for the same crime.  It all comes down to focus.  Because we spend so much money policing inner city environments, we catch more Black Americans.  Because we catch more Black Americans it is percieved that the majority of the problem is in the inner cities.  Because it is percieved thst the problem is in the inner cites, funding is increased for policing the inner cities.  Repeat.

If you consistantly punish one group of people they will be at an economic disadvantage.  This is furtherd by the gang dealers fighting over the rights to deal from the street corners.  Legalize the damn stuff and the dealers go away, you get the streets back for the people.  Shops can come in and operate again.  The people stop being made into fellons and can be employed.  Money comes into the system and it revitalizes itself.

[SC-Sp00k]

I suppose I should ask this as its only fair and proper Koala and Karnak.

Do either of you want a blindfold or a last cigarette?

Koala first.

Al Kapone and Prohibition (Talking USA here)

Al Capone, a gangster in a long line of Gangsters. Alcohol, gambling and Prositutes.  We legalised them all.
Yet slap me with a wet fish, all 3 live long and prosper to this day. Organised Crime being associated with them all.  Bad examples.

The Columbian Cartels. The very people, Your people are fighting and you want to give it all up cause you believe they will play nice and just go away cause you say their product is nice now and we can all have some.

The Mafia.  The best of them all. Still going strong, wiser and as powerful as they ever were.  They now own legitimate enterprises and make much more money than they ever did before whilst cutting the budget dramatically on bullet expenditure.  Yes. Changing previous laws changed those boys alot.  They probably own the building your in.

Do I believe they are going to go away with the current set of laws?  No.  Neither do I believe they are going to go away with ANY set of laws.  Including those made by the bleeding heart liberals.

Karnak. (I'll try to keep this short as I'm trying to watch Full Metal Jacket.)

This guy lost a multi-hundred thousand dollar yacht God! I nearly wept fountains for his poor soul.  Noone gets sympathy who spends money made off sick people on bloody fancy girl grabbing boats. Screw him and his boat.  Are you trying to tell me, that a Doctor doesnt recognise the symptoms of one of his Dope smoking mates after a reefer or 2?  Come on now.  Is he the biggest moron ever to adorn himself with a Stethoscope?

Of course he knew. He also knows the law.  He may be an idiot, but he's not stupid. He allegedly finished Medical school did he not?

Black Americans.

Im not even sure why you brought it up unless its to show some sort of racist minority conspiracy or something. Black, white, red, yellow. Drugs are Drugs. They dont discriminate.

I do agree strongly tho with something you mention on Gun Laws. Now I like Americans a Lot. But you guys are gun whacko's. And I thought we had a problem with our northern redneck brothers up the top end in Australia!  You boys have children with Uzi's fighting Turf wars with a total disregard for the value of life.

Beat the down trodden black man issue all you like. I dont buy it. Those problems you suffer are no different to any other minority living in enclosed self supportive societies like any City in the world has.  Asian, Lebonese, Arab, Italian, Black American. etc.

The whines are all the same. Its always someones elses fault.
In your country, you have Black Politicians, Black Police Officers, Black High ranking Military Officers, Black Doctors etc.

They didnt sit around on their a*ses crying about the colour of their skin.  Not saying they did it easy either. But they did something for themselves.  They looked past the colour and set goals.

A few people in Ghettos can lay claim to society (ie; the rest of us) being the cause of their woes. But not all.  And Drugs (the topic) isnt the sole reason their children are starving and grow up meaner than dogs.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
The Columbian Cartels. The very people, Your people are fighting and you want to give it all up cause you believe they will play nice and just go away cause you say their product is nice now and we can all have some.

 Of course - no question about it. And the beauty is that we do not have to hope they play nice - what they do is irrelevant.

 Once the pound of drugs sold in US equals price of a pound of tea or tobacco, they will not be able to operate profitably. End of story.

Im not even sure why you brought it up unless its to show some sort of racist minority conspiracy or something. Black, white, red, yellow. Drugs are Drugs. They dont discriminate.
 You are spewing general noncense while being completely ignorant about realities of life in US.

 For your information the level of crime, murder rate and other social problems among the whites/asians in US is firmly in the middle of european countries - in many respects better then scandinavian countries or Australia.
 At the same time levels of crime and murder among american blacks are rivaling those among third-world countries torn by civil wars (1/3 males 14-40 in jail or on probation).
 Averaging them up gives you very distorted picture of America.
 That is about no difference between races in respect to suceptability to social ills.

 As for the drug availability - it could not be any higher and drug use any more widespread no matter what you do - legalize, advertise, etc. Drugs are cheaper now on the streets of US despite all the suppression and as easy to get.
 
 We are discussing concrete problems here, in our country - US of A. Not your all-white toe-the-line socialist country where government decides whether you can have a child and people do not find it an intrusion.
 We welcome all opinions here and anyone but if you want anyone value yours, you better get a clue what you are talking about.

 miko

 P.S. I may be wrong in those things - many americans would not agree with my opinion that drugs should be legalized. But that does not make it unnecessary for us to base our arguments on realities of this country - not abstract values but real dollars and cents and human lives.

[Eagler]

I say we legalize coke first ...

put huge piles of it on every street corner, the finest, purest strongest stuff around. Put "Free" signs, must be over 18, could be hazardous to your helath, make them sign a waiver and hand them a straw

24 hours later, after we sweep up the bodies, the gene pool will be that much cleaner and those under 18 who watched the morons O.D. will be that much wiser.

If you are happy with life, you don't need it - any of it!

Get high on life

[koala]

Al Capone, a gangster in a long line of Gangsters. Alcohol, gambling and Prositutes. We legalised them all.
Yet slap me with a wet fish, all 3 live long and prosper to this day. Organised Crime being associated with them all. Bad examples.

Huh?

The Mafia exists because gambling and prostitution are not legal in most areas of the country.  What planet are you living on?  There most likely never would have been an Al Capone if it wasn't for prohibition, and you know it.

[Karnak]

SC-Sp00k,

I mention the black Americans not because they are black, but because they are Americans that have had their lives hugely and negatively affected by the War on Drugs.

The only reason that there is fighting over turf in their communities is because of the illegal drug market.  You legalize drugs and the illegal drug market goes away.  Funny how that works.

The last thing the cartels want is for their biggest market to legalize their product and rob them of the profits.


It is a tendency of far right conservatives that they like things to be simple.  "A" leads to "B" and thats that.  None of this "A" leads to "B" which leads to "C" which leads to "D" and affects "A" while also leading to "E" which....

The mistake I see liberals make is to think they can accurately read all the effects that changing "A" will have.

[wsnpr]

Legalize the drugs and treat it as a medical problem, not a criminal one. Release our overcrowded prisons of drug users and dealers to make way for the true criminals. The tremendous tax dollars brought in can fund ways to R & D to fight the addiction via counseling and perhaps finding a way to mek these drugs not as addictive. This War on Drugs (silly term actually) we are losing.
I find THC (delta 9) the safest of the drugs (I am including alcohol and nicotine in this group). The THC creates a chemical imbalance in your system that your body releases one's own endorphines to act on one's own central nervous system (akin to a distance runner's effect but more pronounced). All the other drugs enact on the central nervous system directly creating the opportunity for a strong addiction. Nicotine is a strong alkaloid poison.
Oops, gotta go for now.
Regards,
wSNPR

PS. I haven't read most posts in this thread, didn't have time.

[SC-Sp00k]

wsnpr and Karnak. Whilst researching various opinions and facts on the net I came across this site from a group of Police Officers who do support your side of the debate.

I post it only because I find it interesting. Not because I agree with it.  To me, it smacks of defeatism, but in all fairness to the debate as Sandman I think suggested earlier that not all Law Enforcement Officers share my opinion, I thought id include it.

To big to quote and paraphrase so Ill post the link. It does make for good reading. Im sure you will enjoy it to SW. Lotsa your kinda facts

http://leap.cc/

karnak, I agree with your point on inner city areas to some extent. In fact, on the topic as you present it, it talks sense.  However I do not believe that Drugs are the sole cause of concern in those areas.  Apart from the obvious Social, Economic and Cultural aspects of those communities.  Much of their problem is the continual desire of Governments to group these communities together. Pack them tightly in the name of supportive cultural tolerances and you segregate them from the surrounding societies.  Hence you create gangs dedicated to their own ill concieved beliefs that either noone cares about them but themselves or that they are better than others due to a self imposed, at times fanatical bonding. Your country does it. Mine does it and So do many others.  Asians tend to live with Asians, lebanese with lebenese etc etc.  Whilst I can see the benefits of this and I am NOT against Multiculturilism, it also draws many negatives, particularly in inner city youth, bored and bred into a world of peer led, self segregation

Koala.....I'll get back to you when I have more time LOL.

[wsnpr]

Originally posted by wsnpr
Legalize the drugs and treat it as a medical problem, not a criminal one. Release our overcrowded prisons of drug users and dealers to make way for the true criminals. The tremendous tax dollars brought in can fund ways to R & D to fight the addiction via counseling and perhaps finding a way to mek these drugs not as addictive. This War on Drugs (silly term actually) we are losing.
I find THC (delta 9) the safest of the drugs (I am including alcohol and nicotine in this group). The THC creates a chemical imbalance in your system that your body releases one's own endorphines to act on one's own central nervous system (akin to a distance runner's effect but more pronounced). All the other drugs enact on the central nervous system directly creating the opportunity for a strong addiction. Nicotine is a strong alkaloid poison.
Oops, gotta go for now.
Regards,
wSNPR

PS. I haven't read most posts in this thread, didn't have time.

Just got back. To continue....

Remove the ability to profit from a product, one removes the motive of selling said product.
I think I recall learning that it was manditory to grow hemp plants on one's own property early in our history. It was actually for the strong hemp fibers used for making rope, clothing, etc. Although smoking marijuana was supposedly common for our founding fathers, the THC, CBN, etc content was much less than today. My guess is that they didn't get really STONED. Yes, they really inhaled as I'll bet Clinton did . Plus the much taller Sativa variety had much less buds and leaves compared to the Indica variety available today.
Despite the present laws against drug trafficing, selling, and using illegal drugs, drug trafficing, selling, and using are still rampant. Even our school children can get crack or marijuana quite easily because there exists a hugely profitable supply of illegal drugs that are not monitored or controlled. Legalize it and that supply will no longer exist as it is today. No profit motive, no selling. No selling, no trafficing. Whether drugs are illegal or legal, there will always be drug usage. Always has been and always will be.
There is more to be said but I'll stop for now.
Regards,
wSNPR

[wsnpr]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
wsnpr and Karnak. Whilst researching various opinions and facts on the net I came across this site from a group of Police Officers who do support your side of the debate.

I post it only because I find it interesting. Not because I agree with it.  To me, it smacks of defeatism, but in all fairness to the debate as Sandman I think suggested earlier that not all Law Enforcement Officers share my opinion, I thought id include it.

To big to quote and paraphrase so Ill post the link. It does make for good reading. Im sure you will enjoy it to SW. Lotsa your kinda facts

http://leap.cc/

SC-Sp00k,
I do understand you to strongly support your beliefs as you've stated. I Salute you for your reading information directly opposed to yours and making it available to all here. Thank you for the link for I didn't know it existed. Everyone here would like to see us win this war we're in. We just disagree on how to go about it.
Regards,
wSNPR

[Karnak]

SC-Sp00k,

I will readily admit that there are other major problems in our inner cites than just drug crime.  But because there are other major problems doesn't mean that this major problem should be ignored.  There is no easy solution to the problem, nor can it come from soley outside of these communities.

Thanks for the link.  Interesting reading.  I've spoken with police officers who flet this way, but never seen this site before.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by miko2d
 You are wrong here, Hortlund - for two reasons.
 First, for a while now advertizing tobacco products is illegal - no more TV commercials, billboards, posters, etc. I think any place where you can see tobacco ads are magazines that are not targeted to teenagers.

[/b]
Have you ever heard of strange concepts such as product placement? Have you ever seen someone smoke on film? Have you ever seen a pack of cigarettes on film? Do you think the director/producer/whoever just thought "yeah, and then we will put a pack of cigarettes there" or "I have an idea, in this scene we will have Bruce Willis light up a smoke". Product placement, and big $$-s my friend.

Have you ever noticed new brands on clothes? Have you for instance noticed that there are jeans and shirts and stuff with a "Marlboro"- lable? Do you think that Phillip Morris just decided one day "hey, I have an idea, lets make clothes too, clothes and cigarettes, thats perfect"? Now you tell me, is it legal or illegal to make commercials for Marlboro-Jeans in the US, yes or no? When someone sees a bigass "Marlboro"-sign, do you think that person instantly think "Marlboro, yeah, I could use a new shirt"?

Ever been to a sporting event? Ever seen bigass "Marlboro"-signs on racecars for example? Ever watch Formula 1? Those cars race all over the world. Have you noticed how the commercial on the cars switch from country to country? That is because tobacco commercial is legal in some places and illegal in others. Funny thing is you can still watch every race on tv.

 In fact tobacco companies spend a lot of money every year financing anti-smoking campaigns.

[/b]
And exactly why is that? Because the tobacco companies care? It is because they made a deal with the insurance companies. Tobacco companies pays something like $ 5 billion a year to a special fund for people with lung cancer, they also run lots of anti-smoking campaigns, because that is part of their deal with the insurance companies.  

 I am sure the narcotics advertising would be even more restricted - probably outlawed altogether.

[/b]
As I have been trying to show, such laws are completely toothless, because it is *very* easy to go around them. See above.

 If you cared to compare the percentage of smokers in US vs your country or Europe in general, you will see a huge difference in our favor.

[/b]What is that favor? I'm not sure I understand? Are you saying that a larger percentage of American smoke compared to Europeans?

 I can explain to my kid a commercial or someone else smoking pot.
 I will have much harder time when some one pretending to be his friend knowingly entices him into drugs because he will make enourmous profits from it - personally.
 A generic ad campaign targeted on people with average IQ of <100 or a highly personalised one targeted on my kid by a dedicated professional agent who - unlike a faceless corporation - has his confidence, knows his buttons? I know which one will be more successfull.

[/b]
You may know your kid, but you sure as he** dont know anything about how and why kids start smoking. Do you think its the generic ad campaigns that gets them hooked? Kids have heroes, these days those heroes are more likely to be movie stars or rock stars...see product placement above.

 I know that some regular friend will offer him pot as well as alcohol and a cigarette some day. But that friend will take "no" for an answer. If the same "friend" has thousands of dollars at stake - he will not give up easily.
So what is so funny about that?

Nothing is funny about that, its rather sad actually.

Have you ever smoked? Have you ever tried alcohol? Did it start that way for you? One of your friends came up and said "want to try some alcohol and cigarettes"? I dunno, maybe it was that way for you, but I think that sounds rather odd actually. As I said, kids have heroes, and when they see those heroes smoke and drink, that might just influence them a bit?

So you tell me, after we have legalized drugs, do you think we will see more moviestars and rockstars having a joint now and then?